brightfame52
Well-known member
Sorry but they are one unified whole. If you reject one point you become inconsistent and reject all
The Elect
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
makesends
Well-known member
And so, just as in your theology, and in secular empirical science, you do what what you want. Why is that a problem?
makesends
Well-known member
That's worse than a weak argument. We know plenty about love for us to do as we should. We mustn't, however, use what we think, to judge what God does.
"Reflects", you say. Well said. The real thing is what he does. What we do is not even a good copy of it. We are ignorant, but know enough that we are without excuse. If love is "fair and just and doesn't show favoritism or does it show partiality" as you say, then why did he set Israel as his chosen people? Why did he feel anguish over their sinful rebellion?
Don't tell me he doesn't show partiality, except in the one verse where it is specific (by context) as to what he was referring to. He is very partial to those who believe him, those who are his sheep, those who follow him, those who are his chosen ones—and that, not because they deserve it, but because he loves them. Esau, he has hated.
makesends
Well-known member
God nearly wiped out Israel by insisting on HIS own way —not theirs.
but did not
I determine what I want. In Calvinist theology, God determines what you want.
So If you do evil, God determined you to want to do evil.
Not if you believe scripture
Christ died list
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 3:56 AM February 25, 2024.
incorrect and lacking in justice
Isaiah 30:1 (ESV) — 1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD, “who carry out a plan, but not mine, and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin;
Jeremiah 18:10–12 (NASB 2020) — 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Jeremiah 32:35 (ESV) — 35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Romans 10:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
He died exclusively for His Sheep and saved them from all sin ! Do you believe in that Jesus ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Some of us just wont let God rule over us, yet He does anyhow Lk 19:14,27
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
The word reign denotes Gods Sovereignty over us, His absolute dominion !
Sovereignty does not mean divine meticulous determination thus
incorrect and lacking in justice
Isaiah 30:1 (ESV) — 1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD, “who carry out a plan, but not mine, and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin;
Jeremiah 18:10–12 (NASB 2020) — 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Jeremiah 32:35 (ESV) — 35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Romans 10:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 But as for Israel, He says, “I HAVE SPREAD OUT MY HANDS ALL DAY LONG TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
If you believe in a jesus that died for all mankind toe to toe, and many go to hell, its not the Jesus of scripture who died for and saved exclusively His Sheep, His People Matt 1:21
brightfame52
Well-known member
Some men will not have God rule over them.
I totally reject UN-conditional election and therefore UN-conditional reprobation in favour of a merited election and reprobation accrued by the free will faith decision by the person himself to accept YHWH as his GOD and saviour from sin before he had ever sinned (ie, in his innocence), but I also accept what I said: He died exclusively for His Sheep gone astray (ie, by their will, NOT GOD'S WILL) into sin before their conception into this world to save them from all sin.
He did not die for the reprobate who never had any faith in Him as their saviour so they are condemned already, Jn 3:18, that is, since before their conception on earth...
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Then you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Reprobation is our default condition. It's not conditional on anything but birth.
makesends
Well-known member
Ha! Now you use my reasoning!
The fact he did not demonstrates his decree always comes to pass, to include his promises.
The fact he "almost did" do it, demonstrates that your equating God's love with that he demands of us: You, by implication in quoting the text, posit that God's love "does not seek its own".
Reminds me of the argument that God is not jealous, when the Bible explicitly says he is!
makesends
Well-known member
Not quite. You can manipulate your mind to want different things, but you still want what you want. The fact that you thus are one of the causes why you want what you want, does no more than to 'kick the [causal] can down the road a bit further.'
Then GOD chose and caused our sin and their reprobation...the only thing I can think of that offsets this blasphemy is that we became the sinful elect or the reprobate by our own free will response to HIS proclamation, Col 1:23, of HIS deity and to being our only saviour from sin, ie, HIS gospel.
HIS sovereignty serves and fulfills HIS loving, righteous and just nature, not the other way round...
