That doesn't necessitate he did so here. In fact, all of the 120 prayed in Acts 1:24 ("they prayed").
None of my other 12 points were addressed.
The Acts 2 church
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That doesn't necessitate he did so here. In fact, all of the 120 prayed in Acts 1:24 ("they prayed").
None of my other 12 points were addressed.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Presumptuous prayers are commonly seen with baby Christians..... "Its God's will!"
Without knowledge do not presume to know how God operates...
Many thousands of Jews prayed for quail in the wilderness and God even gave it to them even though it was not God's will.
But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed,
the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague." Numbers 11:33
Be careful how we pray. Get knowledge and understanding before all else...
The Bible records the errors of believers not to be used as examples of how to live, but what mistakes to avoid!
Truther
Well-known member
Should Jesus have given Peter the keys to the kingdom since he opened the door of salvation to the Jews in Acts 2:38, the Samaritans in Acts 8 and the Gentiles in Acts 10?
GeneZ
Well-known member
God raising up Apostle Paul to become the 12th Apostle does not tell you anything. Does it?
You need to prove that Paul was the 12th apostle.
You keep making assertions as if they are proof.
David Peterson: It is important to observe that there are no further examples of such decision making in the NT. As those who were about to enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant, the apostles were using a practice that was sanctioned by God but belonged to the old era. It took place before Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out in a way that signified a new kind of relationship between God and his people. From Luke's emphasis on the Spirit's role in giving wisdom, guidance, and direction, it would appear that the apostolic example on this occasion is not to be followed by Christians today. (106)
Footnote #106: There is no basis for the claim that the apostles were wrong to select Matthias and that they should have awaited God's choice of Paul to fill the vacancy. (Pillar New Testament Commentary, Acts, page 128-129).
GeneZ
Well-known member
Was Paul and Apostle? Yes.
Did Peter endorse Paul as having deep wisdom? Yes.
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you
with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some
things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other
Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16
How many apostles were there in your estimation?
civic
Well-known member
True they were not born again until Pentecost which is why Jesus asked them to wait until then.
Something else to consider.
According to Acts 1:14, the first believers were continually devoting themselves to prayer 'with one mind' (homothymadon) under the leadership of the 11 apostles, so too did the most recent converts afterwards continually devote themselves to prayer (Acts 2:42) 'with one mind' (homothymadon) under the leadership of the 12 apostles (which included Matthias) in Acts 2:46.
Luke makes this connection thereby giving his approval of Matthias as the 12th apostle.
Something I never denied.
He wasn't the 12th apostle in that he replaced Judas.
Matthias was the 12th apostle.
Does that necessitate the other apostles didn't have wisdom?
The twelve - according to the criteria in Acts 1:21-22 - could not include Paul.
The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible: The qualifications for inclusion among the Twelve are laid down in Acts 1:21-22. It was necessary to be with Jesus from the time of John's baptism until the ascension and to be a witness of the resurrection...While it was necessary to have been present during all that period, particular stress is laid upon being a witness of the resurrection (Acts 2:32; 3:15; 13:31). Paul could not be numbered among the Twelve, for he had not fulfilled all the conditions laid down. However, he had been a witness of the resurrection (Acts 26:16-18; 1 Cor. 9:1; 15:8)...(1:255, Apostle, R.E. Nixon).
civic
Well-known member
Its not a hill I would die on one way or the other but I lean towards Paul and I personally believe they jumped the gun since nowhere were they told by Jesus to replace judas. So there are assumptions made on both sides imho.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Peter did not want to wait and he was being his usual impulsive self.
He wanted to do something right then to replace Judas.
Wonder who whispered in his ear the idea?
Peter had weaknesses that God was going to deal with over time.
From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that
he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands
of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,
and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
“Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan!
You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind
the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Matthew 16:21-23
GeneZ
Well-known member
God's Word says there are only Twelve Apostles.
There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south
and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on
them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." ..Rev 21:13-14....
and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on
them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." ..Rev 21:13-14....
Sorry.. There was no 13th foundation to be found for Matthias.
grace and peace ..............
No need to be sorry, because no one has refuted the evidence I supplied concerning Matthias.
What about Paul? If Matthias was one of the twelve, where does that leave Paul? Good question.
When Israel came out of Egypt, how many tribes were there? When the Exodus came about from Egypt, there was a slight rearranging of these tribes in that Levi became a distinct and separate priestly tribe given over to the service of God, and the tribe of Joseph was split into Mannasseh and Ephraim, his two sons. But the foundational structure of there being twelve sources through which each Israelite could trace their Jewish origins remained. Just as technically there were thirteen tribes in the time of Joseph, with his two sons taking his place, that is what we find in the New Testament. Judas is replaced with Matthias and then Paul is added.
Judas' Replacement, Acts 1:12-26
truekingdom.org
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Peter was in the flesh. He leaned on his own understanding in the vanity of his mind.
You do know God is the ONE who baptizes into the body a persons place in the body, that God is the ONE who gives out any callings to any of His servants, and that man cannot in all biblical truth appoint anyone to the office of apostle. That's God's realm. Peter was definitely in error and operating totally in his flesh. Jesus was on the planet 40 days after His resurrection speaking to His disciples about things pertaining to the kingdom of God and it is extremely reasonable to conclude that if Christ wanted Matthias to be apostle, He would have chosen him Himself. But He didn't. Peter's use of the Psalms has nothing to do with Judas. Totally in the flesh and his error has cost the Church great injury since then. The RCC uses this to appoint and choose out their popes.
The disciples were commanded to go back to Jerusalem and WAIT until they be endued with power from on high. Peter didn't wait. He was disobedient. To teach one sits down. To officiate one stands up and Peter STOOD up when Jesus commanded the disciples to SEAT DOWN and wait:
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Lk 24:49.
The Greek word for "tarry" is from Strong's:
[G#2523] kathizō another (active) form for [G#2516] (kathezomai); to seat down.
It is translated in the KJV as: sit 26 times, sit down 14 times, set 2 times, be set 2 times, be set down 2 times, continue 1 time, tarry 1 time.
The command is to "seat down" at Jerusalem and wait for the Promise Jesus told them about but Peter disobeyed and STOOD UP and led the disciples into error without instruction from Jeus or guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Another error was the mystical method of casting lots, which under the Law was the responsibility and ministry of the high priest. So what if they prayed. In Acts 13:1-4 in the sending out of Saul and Barnabas the Spirit spoke through the prophets (prophecy) and the disciples fasted (at least one day) and prayed and actually waited for a response from the Holy Spirit to confirm the earlier prophecy of at least the day before. This is the Biblical way to discern God's will in doctrine and practice.
Another thing is the word translated as "numbered" in Acts 1:17 and verse 26/. Two different words that go directly to understanding what Peter did and the Holy Spirit's response. Oh, yes, the Holy Spirit did finally respond to Peter's and the disciples' prayers but not in the way expected.
vs. 17 - Strong's [G#2674] "numbered" katarithmeō
from <G2596> (kata) and <G705> (arithmeo); to reckon among.
We get our English word "arithmetic" from this Greek word.
vs. 26 - Strong's [G#4785] "numbered" synkatapsēphizomai (compound word) from [G#4862] (sun) and a compound of [G#2596] (kata) and [G#5585] (psephizo); to count down in company with, i.e. enroll among.
In both Matthew 10:30 and Luke 12:7 is the word "arithmeo"
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Mt 10:30.
What does this mean? It means that Judas was numbered "among" the twelve but Matthias with the eleven.
"Arithmeo" is the counting of your hairs in your head among the other hairs [Judas]
while for Matthias it is taking a strand of hair from one head and placing it with the hairs of another head. That is Matthias.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26.
The Holy Spirit's choice of words is His declaration that Judas was chosen by Jesus to be among the twelve and Matthias chosen by man to be with the eleven. God did not sanction this method nor the choice resulting from this method. Matthias was rejected as apostle by the Holy Spirit. The "hair" came from another body and not the body of Christ.
Anyone except me.
Yes. As I showed above.
Pete was in error. Tell me, who replaced James after Herod killed him in Acts 12?
That's because they assumed this was a good thing. They didn't know the command of Jesus in Luke 24:49 to go back to Jerusalem and WAIT, nor did they know as we do know now how an apostle in made apostle (by God) and the teachings of the Doctrines of Christ which are the doctrines of the Spirit. It was an early church and as Jewish Christians they had to learn a New Covenant and that didn't come over night.
The apostles doctrine was what Jesus taught the twelve, now eleven minus Judas. Matthias was not among them.
Sure. I can do that too. Any believer with their doctrine in the right places can. God does not reward disobedience.
Means nothing. Jail by association.
So have I.
It doesn't mention Matthias. You're adding to the bible.
Matthias wasn't mentioned. The Holy Spirit authorized the twelve (minus Judas), not Matthias. He was a man's choice.
Again no mention of Matthias.
Another guess. No mention of Matthias.
Another guess. No mention of Matthias.
And let me also assist you in this: the office of apostle is a spiritual office but Peter gives a natural qualification of merely being physically present from the time of Jesus' baptism to His resurrection. Matthias could have been among the mentioned 120.
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:22.
And still one more thing:
We do this thing too when we pray to God and ask His guidance. We give him an either/or.
23 And they appointed two [either/or], Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. Acts 1:23.
But God is not restricted to what we submit to Him by way to answer our prayers. I stopped doing that a long, long time ago because God plays baseball sometimes. Remember Genesis: "in the big-inning" and mostly all His answer to my prayers usually come out of "left field!"
A ridiculous assertion of yours.
And they did.
No, you didn't.
Nothing in the Greek words even hint at it was a wrong decision.
Lexical support for your assertion, please.
Barton Johnson: The lot fell on Matthias. Some have held that the choice of Matthias was unauthorized and that he was never accepted as an apostle. The reasons for this view are that he is not named again, and Paul was finally chosen as an apostle. To this it may be replied: (1) Neither are more than half the other names in the apostolic band again mentioned, Thomas, Thaddeus and Bartholomew, for example. (2) Paul was not an apostle to the Jews, but to the Gentiles, and hence, not one of the Twelve. (3) There is no hint anywhere in Acts, or elsewhere, that the selection of Matthias was not recognized. (4) In Acts 6:2, "the twelve" are spoken of, and he must have been one of "the twelve," for Paul was not yet converted. These facts show that such speculations as those referred to above are without foundation. (People's New Testament)
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/pnt/view.cgi?bk=43&ch=1
GeneZ
Well-known member
You're right. Paul was the Tribe of Benjamin. No good. Not a tribe.
I looked at the evidence.
Its overwhelming in favor of Mathias.
For Matthias wrote:
Ephesians... .
Philemon...
Philippians....
1st Corinthians....
2nd Corinthians.....
Romans .....
Colossians....
Galatians...
1st Thessalonians
2nd Thessalonians....
1st Timothy...
2nd Timothy
Titus....
And, Matthias' good friend Luke?
He wrote Acts and the Gospel of Luke!
God did not have Paul write even one!
Its a no brainer who the twelfth apostle was.
So... You're right!
There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south
and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on
them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." ..Rev 21:13-14....
grace and peace ..............
Agree.
Nope, nor did Thomas and many others of the Twelve.
Post 309 was dodged.
GeneZ
Well-known member
I think that dodging is a good thing to do at times.
For there is a time for every season under heaven...
Find something better to pick a fight over.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Paul WENT to the land of the Gentiles where the twelve tribes were scattered to reach out to Jewish Christians in those churches in Asia Minor.
All the writings of the New Testament were written by Jewish Christians TO and FOR Jewish Christians.
The New Covenant was made with the House of Israel NOT the house and run down shack of the Gentiles.
Thank God He's opened my eyes to this truth, and I am not a thief to steal the covenants and the promises, and the prophecies God made to Israel from Israel.
Thank God.
