GeneZ
Well-known member
Barton Johnson.... some background is needed:
https://www.swordsearcher.com/christian-authors/barton-w-johnson.html
The Acts 2 church
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
https://www.swordsearcher.com/christian-authors/barton-w-johnson.html
Tell that to yourself as you hurry away from post 309.
Post 309 is still there.
Acts 6:2
So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables.
It was before the conversion of Paul that the twelve are referred to by Luke.
GeneZ
Well-known member
"The Twelve" was a term designated for their leadership.
Like we like to say... "The White House."
Like who we have today as the White House?
And... Matthias was delegated such a position of leadership by men.
But, apostleship is not to be voted in by men. Only God chooses that gift.
1 Corinthians 12 - the gifts in the body are as the Spirit determines.
Could you imagine if a church needs a new pastor?
And, members vote as to who will have the gift of pastor to replace the old one?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The Jewish Christians that founded the New Covenant Church which is a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of Jews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle did not have Paul's epistle to Corinth or any other letter as from him describing the gifts of the Spirit and other particulars the advent of Israel's Messiah had on Judaism, so they were pretty much winging it and most likely trying things found in Judaism until time, maturity, bible study, discussion, and other things gradually led them to see old things with new eyes and new things with old eyes, but the appointment of Mattias by Peter was an error. Nor did Paul replace Judas. Christ doesn't replace, He adds. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Or, don't you know that?
In other words another way to see this with regard to Judas whom Christ NAMED APOSTLE in Luke 6:12-13 is definitive, unless you want to contradict Jesus (which I find many members here do.)
This means either Judas is still an apostle of the lamb in hell (which is impossible being that he was covenant and a Friend of Jesus (the other named friend is Abraham), or Judas is still apostle of the lamb with Jesus. I prefer the second idea. There are no apostles of the lamb in hell, nor are there any friends of God in hell. Judas actually has his name enshrined on the foundation of the wall of the New Jerusalem along with the other apostles of the lamb. And the reference of "lamb" dates his apostleship to when Jesus was on the planet as lamb of God.
So, for the first years of the New Covenant Church founded by Jewish Christians, they didn't always get it right the first time but had to grow in knowledge in their new covenant promised by God in Jeremiah 31:33ff. Peter was in serious error. He did a boo boo.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Jesus designated his disciples as "Jewish" apostles.
For they were sent out by Jesus to spread to the Jews his message.
"He came to His own."
"He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” Matthew 15: 24
At Pentecost? .... the apostles became Christian, and Christian apostles.
They became a new creation in Christ!
Paul needed to be brought in in to make twelve Christian apostles.
At best, Matthias was a Jewish apostle because he was assigned as a Jewish apostle was before Pentecost.
Or Matthias is the 12th apostle.
I choose what Luke through the Holy Spirit chooses.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Rightly divide, please.
Stubbornness is not the same thing as conviction.
When Luke names them the 12?
Was that?
Before Pentecost?
After Pentecost?
And? Luke speaks of Judas was one of the twelve. Judas = Unsaved.
If it was before Pentecost? Those Jewish apostles were not yet a new creation in Christ.
They were an old dispensation type apostle.
What Luke 6:12-13 spoke of? Were 12 Jewish age apostles. They were not Church.
You can keep repeating your "conviction." That in itself does not make it truth.
If you can stop making your emotions your god? You might begin to rightly divide the Word of God.
Paul was a new creation in Christ when God assigned him to be his apostle.
Mattathias was not a new creation in Christ when men voted him in to become a temporary gap filler.
"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle
and set apart for the gospel of God."
Romans 1:1
Paul was not voted in by men.
God called Paul! Not Mattathias.
.
God called Paul! Not Mattathias.
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Stop hiding from the evidence, please.
Get yourself a mirror and look into it.
Already addressed in post 309.
You won't deal with the evidence there because it refutes your false belief.
Try again.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Just because Mattathias prayed with them does not mean God called him to be an apostle.
God calls us before the foundation of the world. So? Why did they need to vote between two men?
God would have shown Peter whom he had chosen.
Since when does God tell his Church to vote on something to reveal God's will?
grace and peace ..........................
...................
GeneZ
Well-known member
When Matthias was "voted" in by men?
Was he an OT apostle?
Or, was he a New Creation in Christ Apostle?
Judas was called as an OT apostle....
God knew Judas was to be eliminated.
Likewise, for Matthias.
God called Paul.
Men voted for Matthias.
.........
That's not the entirety of my argument and you know that. Keep up your evasions.
It is comical.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Its not an evasion... It was just a point.
I've given up on having all I showed you to sink in.
For I do not think you even know what I showed you means.
But, some others hill may understand....
I have met all kinds over the years.
No one surprises me anymore.
Which wasn't anything that refutes post 309.
Matthias becomes the 12th apostle
And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26)
Matthias being an apostle stood with Peter (an apostle) and the other 10 apostles
But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven (Acts 2:14)
Matthias the apostle was addressed along with the other 11 apostles
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)
The new converts devoted themselves to Matthias the apostle along with the 11 other apostles
They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. (Acts 2:42)
The "apostles" spoken of in Acts 2:43 included the apostle Matthias
Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. (Acts 2:43)
GeneZ
Well-known member
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I would rather say they were Jewish by birth.
Yes, and to His own He sent them.
The [sent] apostles were commanded to go into Jerusalem, Judaea, Samaria, and east towards Mesopotamia and the Orient. [Towards the Orient] for the twelve tribes scattered lived in Gentile lands and His message to "His own" was to inform the twelve tribes scattered throughout the then-known world that their Messiah and King had come, and that God has kept His Promise made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 18:18, that God would send a Prophet "like unto Moses" from among their brethren (that He would be from one of the tribes.)
Yes, Sir. I agree. Emphasize the word "only" in your translation.
Well, being followers of [Jesus] the Messiah (Gr. "Christ) they were already Christian (Messiah-ites) but as Acts 11 states the Jewish Christians at Antioch were first to receive that designation as "Christian" and I don't believe it was a derogatory name.
Agree. Paul says as much in Ephesians 4:24 and 2 Corinthians 5:17.
While I may agree with you on Matthias' choice to be with the eleven I disagree that Paul was Judas' replacement. God/Christ doesn't replace, He adds.
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:46–47.
I agree Matthias was Jewish since Jesus was a Jewish Messiah and Gentiles were the furthest thing on their minds as far as inclusion was concerned. Later, about ten years later God took a sheet in Peter's vision on the rooftop and showed him that the unclean (Gentiles) were now "clean" and Peter's involvement with Cornelius (God Fearer - Covert to Judaism) was to let Peter know that Gentiles were to be coming in with them as part of their covenant.
A nonsense question
Acts is a NT Book.
All the while you dodged the evidence I provide.
Get real.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
As Scripture says, Christ doesn't replace, He adds.
So, show me in the New Covenant Scriptures something that says Christ replaces.
Those were unbelievers becoming believers. It doesn't relate to the 12th apostle (Matthias).
