The Accomplice Factor

[Rockson]

OK so Calvinists have different ways they express things. Many of them believe EVERYTHING is ordained of God. Nothing takes place without God having determined it or wanted it to happen beforehand. Terms are played around with like God is or isn't the primary one who causes evil acts.....first cause, second cause whatever cause, however one wants to say it.......none of those things matter...... if he ordained that EVIL occurs! Ordaining is a verb which denotes some type of action to create an end result. If there is ANYTHING at all that God did then legally speaking he became an ACCOMPLICE of the sin, that mean he has a part in it. Now Calvinist jump back and say, "No, no, no! God didn't do anything in being a part of sin!" I agree he didn't but I have a right to make that statement for it's consistent with my views. I believe God has allowed sin but had no part in it including by ordaining it.

Now if Calvinists are going to camp out on God is not guilty nor had a part in actual sin then they quickly need to break off the chains of their mental state which is holding them in bound and once and for all step into the liberty of a Non Calvinistic position! Know this.....if there is no controlling force about anything ordained then guess what? You only have a God which allows! If there is a controlling force in any way shape or form and we don't have to spend wasted hours upon hours on just what that is......if it's ANYTHING at all then you have a God who is an ACCOMPLICE to sin (or a crime) which would make you guilty and be a part of it. Every court in the land would call someone like that GUILTY, yes of sin.

What legally is an ACCOMPLICE? A good definition, : An accessory is someone who is not present during the commission of the offense but who assists, procures, encourages, or counsels the offender before the crime has been committed. (it also goes on to say) Once a crime has been committed and a party is shown to have contributed to its commission, that person may be punished as a principal.

If ordaining doesn't assist in anyway shape or form.....then you have merely a God who allows! Welcome then Calvinist to the Non Calvinist position and accept that Calvinism collapses as one thinks through on the matter.

 

[civic]

Excellent OP and I will get the popcorn ready and see if you will get a cogent response from a calvinist.

 

[Aeliana]

It makes me think of the old cop out..." the devil made me do it." The truth of the matter is God doesn't ordain evil. The best explanation on evil I've heard is that evil is the absence of good. The same way the darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot remove light, but light can definitely remove darkness.

Proverbs 6:16-19​

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 8:13​

The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

 

[civic]

It makes me think of the old cop out..." the devil made me do it." The truth of the matter is God doesn't ordain evil. The best explanation on evil I've heard is that evil is the absence of good. The same way the darkness is the absence of light. Darkness cannot remove light, but light can definitely remove darkness.

Proverbs 6:16-19​

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 8:13​

The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.

yes flip wilson was a calvinist lol

 

[Presby02]

OK so Calvinists have different ways they express things. Many of them believe EVERYTHING is ordained of God. Nothing takes place without God having determined it or wanted it to happen beforehand. Terms are played around with like God is or isn't the primary one who causes evil acts.....first cause, second cause whatever cause, however one wants to say it.......none of those things matter...... if he ordained that EVIL occurs! Ordaining is a verb which denotes some type of action to create an end result. If there is ANYTHING at all that God did then legally speaking he became an ACCOMPLICE of the sin, that mean he has a part in it. Now Calvinist jump back and say, "No, no, no! God didn't do anything in being a part of sin!" I agree he didn't but I have a right to make that statement for it's consistent with my views. I believe God has allowed sin but had no part in it including by ordaining it.

Now if Calvinists are going to camp out on God is not guilty nor had a part in actual sin then they quickly need to break off the chains of their mental state which is holding them in bound and once and for all step into the liberty of a Non Calvinistic position! Know this.....if there is no controlling force about anything ordained then guess what? You only have a God which allows! If there is a controlling force in any way shape or form and we don't have to spend wasted hours upon hours on just what that is......if it's ANYTHING at all then you have a God who is an ACCOMPLICE to sin (or a crime) which would make you guilty and be a part of it. Every court in the land would call someone like that GUILTY, yes of sin.

What legally is an ACCOMPLICE? A good definition, : An accessory is someone who is not present during the commission of the offense but who assists, procures, encourages, or counsels the offender before the crime has been committed. (it also goes on to say) Once a crime has been committed and a party is shown to have contributed to its commission, that person may be punished as a principal.

If ordaining doesn't assist in anyway shape or form.....then you have merely a God who allows! Welcome then Calvinist to the Non Calvinist position and accept that Calvinism collapses as one thinks through on the matter.

So would you say God is a accomplice in the murder of His own Son given Acts 4:28,28?

 

[Rockson]

So would you say God is a accomplice in the murder of His own Son given Acts 4:28,28?

Here's about a 6 minute video (not very long) where this young man answers the question of this very well.

 

[Presby02]

Here's about a 6 minute video (not very long) where this young man answers the question of this very well.

Not interested. I'm asking you. Was God an accomplice in the murder of His own Son?

 

[Rockson]

Not interested. I'm asking you. Was God an accomplice in the murder of His own Son?

No because he never put evil in their hearts to do any of that by compelling their actions In fact at times Jesus withdrew from their midst for they wanted to kill him before the time. Jn 8:58 If God was ordaining every thought of men he wouldn't have overdone their thoughts to have Jesus taken out before the time.

 

[Presby02]

No because he never put evil in their hearts to do any of that by compelling their actions In fact at times Jesus withdrew from their midst for they wanted to kill him before the time. Jn 8:58 If God was ordaining every thought of men he wouldn't have overdone their thoughts to have Jesus taken out before the time.

No? He planned and determined it to occur. He brought about by His hand.

The Bible say God moves the heart where He wishes it to go.

 

[civic]

No because he never put evil in their hearts to do any of that by compelling their actions In fact at times Jesus withdrew from their midst for they wanted to kill him before the time. Jn 8:58 If God was ordaining every thought of men he wouldn't have overdone their thoughts to have Jesus taken out before the time.

Notice again question after question never engaging the argument or scripture just the usual dodging , evading , equivocating, conflating , false accusations etc…

 

[Presby02]

Notice again question after question never engaging the argument or scripture just the usual dodging , evading , equivocating, conflating , false accusations etc…

Projection

 

[civic]

Projection

mirror

 

[Presby02]

mirror

Man, I am handsome. Good advice.

 

[civic]

Man, I am handsome. Good advice.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder lol.

 

[Presby02]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder lol.

You have nothing to worry about then.

 

[Studyman]

OK so Calvinists have different ways they express things. Many of them believe EVERYTHING is ordained of God. Nothing takes place without God having determined it or wanted it to happen beforehand. Terms are played around with like God is or isn't the primary one who causes evil acts.....first cause, second cause whatever cause, however one wants to say it.......none of those things matter...... if he ordained that EVIL occurs! Ordaining is a verb which denotes some type of action to create an end result. If there is ANYTHING at all that God did then legally speaking he became an ACCOMPLICE of the sin, that mean he has a part in it. Now Calvinist jump back and say, "No, no, no! God didn't do anything in being a part of sin!" I agree he didn't but I have a right to make that statement for it's consistent with my views. I believe God has allowed sin but had no part in it including by ordaining it.

For there to be a "choice" there must be different voices to choose from. God sent Eve into a garden with His Word, and another voice HE placed in the garden. This is essential in understanding God, in my view. As it is written;

Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that "I have set before you" life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Now if Calvinists are going to camp out on God is not guilty nor had a part in actual sin then they quickly need to break off the chains of their mental state which is holding them in bound and once and for all step into the liberty of a Non Calvinistic position! Know this.....if there is no controlling force about anything ordained then guess what? You only have a God which allows! If there is a controlling force in any way shape or form and we don't have to spend wasted hours upon hours on just what that is......if it's ANYTHING at all then you have a God who is an ACCOMPLICE to sin (or a crime) which would make you guilty and be a part of it. Every court in the land would call someone like that GUILTY, yes of sin.

What legally is an ACCOMPLICE? A good definition, : An accessory is someone who is not present during the commission of the offense but who assists, procures, encourages, or counsels the offender before the crime has been committed. (it also goes on to say) Once a crime has been committed and a party is shown to have contributed to its commission, that person may be punished as a principal.

If ordaining doesn't assist in anyway shape or form.....then you have merely a God who allows! Welcome then Calvinist to the Non Calvinist position and accept that Calvinism collapses as one thinks through on the matter.

I think this very thing is addressed in Rev. 18:

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

If we are part of this world's religious system, are we not then accomplices? That is why, in my understanding, Jesus said to "Come out of her" so that we are not partakers of her traditions which transgress God's Commandments.

 

[Studyman]

Notice again question after question never engaging the argument or scripture just the usual dodging , evading , equivocating, conflating , false accusations etc…

I think this is because most men are only interested in preserving and justifying their own adopted religious philosophy. As opposed to seeking the truth of what is actually written or "Seeking" the Righteousness of God as Jesus instructs. This leads to "dodging , evading , equivocating, conflating , false accusations etc."

Jesus explains why in John 3. But "many" believe this is only for the other guy, and not themselves. Fascinating how spot on the Scriptures are, regarding the minds of men.

 

[Rockson]

I think this is because most men are only interested in preserving and justifying their own adopted religious philosophy. As opposed to seeking the truth of what is actually written or "Seeking" the Righteousness of God as Jesus instructs. This leads to "dodging , evading , equivocating, conflating , false accusations etc."

There should come a time however when one takes the arguments of others into consideration, even in their quite times and allows such arguments to move one to make a sincere re-assessment of what they held as truth. When one down right knows the other has made a very good point and they persist in resisting it they may have to face one day that they were fighting and resisting God.

 

[Studyman]

There should come a time however when one takes the arguments of others into consideration, even in their quite times and allows such arguments to move one to make a sincere re-assessment of what they held as truth. When one down right knows the other has made a very good point and they persist in resisting it they may have to face one day that they were fighting and resisting God.

Amen,

Jesus talks of "That Day" when HE speaks face to face with "many" who call Him Lord, Lord. But it's too late then. He goes on to tell us whose house will stand, and whose will not stand, for those who believe Him. (Matt. 7:22 on.)

Paul understood this, and promoted to others that we should Labor, that we might be accepted by God.

Phil. 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 "I press toward the mark" for the prize of the high calling of God "in Christ Jesus".

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, "be thus minded": and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He reminds us,

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, "according to that he hath done", whether it be good or bad.

Those Christians in Matt. 7:22 were convinced they were saved, but they weren't. How awful it would be to open your eyes and find out that eternity was right there, right in front of us, but we chose to "Yield ourselves" servants to obey the religions of this world and their traditions and philosophies, over the instruction in righteousness from God and His Son given us in ever bible ever printed. It's no wonder there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I truly hope men do, in the quietness of their own closet, turn away from this world's religions and towards God's Word "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

After all, as Paul teaches, it was written as "examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" and to come to believe that "all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Wherefore (Because of these truths) let him that "thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall.

It's like God wrote this for us Rockson, like HE knew all those years ago that we would be here talking about these things.

 

[Rockson]

Amen,

Jesus talks of "That Day" when HE speaks face to face with "many" who call Him Lord, Lord. But it's too late then. He goes on to tell us whose house will stand, and whose will not stand, for those who believe Him. (Matt. 7:22 on.)

Paul understood this, and promoted to others that we should Labor, that we might be accepted by God.

Phil. 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 "I press toward the mark" for the prize of the high calling of God "in Christ Jesus".

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, "be thus minded": and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

He reminds us,

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, "according to that he hath done", whether it be good or bad.

Those Christians in Matt. 7:22 were convinced they were saved, but they weren't. How awful it would be to open your eyes and find out that eternity was right there, right in front of us, but we chose to "Yield ourselves" servants to obey the religions of this world and their traditions and philosophies, over the instruction in righteousness from God and His Son given us in ever bible ever printed. It's no wonder there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I truly hope men do, in the quietness of their own closet, turn away from this world's religions and towards God's Word "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

After all, as Paul teaches, it was written as "examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" and to come to believe that "all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Wherefore (Because of these truths) let him that "thinketh he standeth" take heed lest he fall.

It's like God wrote this for us Rockson, like HE knew all those years ago that we would be here talking about these things.

I liked your post and agree with everything in it. I would add this though I think there's the judgement for those who don't know the Lord what we'd call a heaven or hell judgement but another judgment will take place of those who are his children and know him.....the Judgment Seat of Christ where those who were teachers will be under a greater scrutiny on just what they taught. James 3:1 Let's just say as for me I'd never want to have to give account for saying God doesn't LOVE all sinners when in fact he does.