The 5 Articles of Remonstrance (Arminianism)

[GodsGrace]

Here is the deal, the bottom line. Natures do no sin, people sin, people choose to sin.

Civic....
I just can't debate this anymore.
There's an apparent misunderstanding as to what the sin nature is.
It is not a different nature than the one God gave us.

Of course people sin...
but what makes them sin is the question at hand.
What is it that is within us that leads us toward sin...
WHY do we sin?

Can it be as easy as... we want to?
Gosh. Even Paul said he did NOT WANT to sin
and yet HE DID.

So WHAT makes us sin if not something with us that is broken...
that was implanted in us when Adam first sinned.
He was perfectly good before the eating...
and then something changed.

WHAT changed?

We cannot blame any nature or the devil. We are to blame for our own sin. I here this excuse all the time from people who quote Paul in Romans 7 as an excuse for their sins and blame it on the flesh, sin nature. Romans 7 is Paul describing his struggle under the " law " not under the new man in Christ,

Agreed on the above.
I've been saying all along that once we are saved the sin nature gets put under submission to the Holy Spirit.
And it's not an excuse....
it's accepted Christian doctrine.

the new creation in Christ, the born again man. These same people will also misquote Paul and identify themselves as the chief of sinners. Once again under careful exegesis and understanding Pauls point is that was him as a Pharisee under the law and persecuting the church, killing believers. That was a description of his former life in the flesh, void of the Spirit.

Agreed.

This will be my next devotion with our Thursday morning mens group at church the next time I lead it in June. In fact I'm talking about it tomorrow morning with the mens group that meets at my house.

I studied this in a Nazarene church many years ago in a year-long discipleship study.
It changed my understanding of everything.

But I'm just not scholarly enough to pass it on in a manner that might be easily understood.

 

[civic]

Civic....
I just can't debate this anymore.
There's an apparent misunderstanding as to what the sin nature is.
It is not a different nature than the one God gave us.

Of course people sin...
but what makes them sin is the question at hand.
What is it that is within us that leads us toward sin...
WHY do we sin?

Can it be as easy as... we want to?
Gosh. Even Paul said he did NOT WANT to sin
and yet HE DID.

So WHAT makes us sin if not something with us that is broken...
that was implanted in us when Adam first sinned.
He was perfectly good before the eating...
and then something changed.

WHAT changed?



Agreed on the above.
I've been saying all along that once we are saved the sin nature gets put under submission to the Holy Spirit.
And it's not an excuse....
it's accepted Christian doctrine.


Agreed.


I studied this in a Nazarene church many years ago in a year-long discipleship study.
It changed my understanding of everything.

But I'm just not scholarly enough to pass it on in a manner that might be easily understood.

No worries its not easy to be understood in this format online, text has the same problem even with my wife, children and friends. Sometimes I have to pick up the phone to clarify what I meant or was not clearly being communicated. And sometimes that can be tough at times and a face to face conversation is needed or if distance is a problem a facetime call to see the persons facial expressions that are very revealing/telling.

Unfortunately we don't have that luxury here. Allthough I have had phone calls and or FT calls with several members on this forum.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here is the deal, the bottom line. Natures do no sin, people sin, people choose to sin. We cannot blame any nature or the devil. We are to blame for our own sin. I here this excuse all the time from people who quote Paul in Romans 7 as an excuse for their sins and blame it on the flesh, sin nature. Romans 7 is Paul describing his struggle under the " law " not under the new man in Christ, the new creation in Christ, the born again man. These same people will also misquote Paul and identify themselves as the chief of sinners. Once again under careful exegesis and understanding Pauls point is that was him as a Pharisee under the law and persecuting the church, killing believers. That was a description of his former life in the flesh, void of the Spirit.

This will be my next devotion with our Thursday morning mens group at church the next time I lead it in June. In fact I'm talking about it tomorrow morning with the mens group that meets at my house.

Hey brother.

I think your seeing it wrong

When we say we have a sin nature. we are saying in affect it is our natural tendancy to sin. (serve self)

no one is saying our nature sins, we are saying it is in our nature

It is a dogs nature to eat their vomit.. thats why a dog will always return to their vomit.

it is a natural mans nature to serve self. so it is our innate nature to sin

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

in adam all die.

the doctrine of origional sin is in these words.

the wage of sin is death

all in adam are dead.

hence it can be said, when adam sinned, and he died. the whole human race died because of this sin

 

[GodsGrace]

In a nutshell:

The doctrine of Original Sin was developed by Augustine of Hippo in the 3rd century. It posits that everyone is born with a sin nature. This hereditary passing down of sin affects all human beings from the moment of their conception.

I dislike Augustine.
Have no respect for him other than his intelligence, which, unfortunately, has caused problems in even today's church.

Original Sin is one of the doctrines that he CHANGED.
THIS was never accepted in the early church.
HE changed the meaning of original sin.

I also don't consider this age to be of the ECFs....to far in.
And it was in the 5th century...not the 3rd.

WE ARE NOT GUILTY OF ADAM'S SIN...
we are just defiled by it....
stained by it.

THIS STAIN IS THE SINFUL NATURE.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sure.
But GOD placed in the body of a person with the sin nature??
I DON'T THINK SO!

why not?
PS. Mary was a child of God when he entered here. She was forgiven of all her sins. So just like you and I. God sees us with no sin

I just can't debate this.

not really a debate

Mary needed saved, she called Christ her savior.. If she was sinless. She was born as christ was born, perfect.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I dislike Augustine.
Have no respect for him other than his intelligence, which, unfortunately, has caused problems in even today's church.

Original Sin is one of the doctrines that he CHANGED.
THIS was never accepted in the early church.
HE changed the meaning of original sin.

I also don't consider this age to be of the ECFs....to far in.
And it was in the 5th century...not the 3rd.

WE ARE NOT GUILTY OF ADAM'S SIN...
we are just defiled by it....
stained by it.

THIS STAIN IS THE SINFUL NATURE.

in adam all die

even so in christ shall all be made alive

can someone explain this?

If the wage of sin is death,

and through adam we are all born dead.

what was it we were charged with that made us dead?

 

[GodsGrace]

No worries its not easy to be understood in this format online, text has the same problem even with my wife, children and friends. Sometimes I have to pick up the phone to clarify what I meant or was not clearly being communicated. And sometimes that can be tough at times and a face to face conversation is needed or if distance is a problem a facetime call to see the persons facial expressions that are very revealing/telling.

Unfortunately we don't have that luxury here. Allthough I have had phone calls and or FT calls with several members on this forum.

Exactly....
I feel that what I'm saying is not being received the way I mean it.

We only have one nature....our human nature.

It is stained by Adam's sin.
That stain is called concupescense....the sin(ful) nature...the flesh...
and probably other words that don't come to mnd right now.

It does NOT mean that God put sin into our nature.

Can't do better than this....
I see that @Eternally-Grateful is also trying.
Maybe he'll have more luck.

We're not disagreeing....there's a misunderstanding.
I think.

 

[GodsGrace]

why not?
PS. Mary was a child of God when he entered here. She was forgiven of all her sins. So just like you and I. God sees us with no sin

not really a debate

Mary needed saved, she called Christ her savior.. If she was sinless. She was born as christ was born, perfect.

Jesus died for all mankind.
She was part of the mankind Jesus died for.
It was still Jesus that saved her...
in some sense.
Because it doesn't mean she was perfect.
Only Jesus was perfect.
If Mary was perfect, in the true sense, then there would have been 2 perfect persons...
but there was only one.

It just makes sense to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

in adam all die

even so in christ shall all be made alive

can someone explain this?

If the wage of sin is death,

and through adam we are all born dead.

what was it we were charged with that made us dead?

Adam made all of humanity be born dead.
When he sinned, he sinned for all humanity and all the prevenient gifts he had were lost.
He had
immortality
infused knowledge
absence of the sin nature

Although we are not personally responsible for Adam's sin...
we do suffer for it and we are severed from God...
our perfect relationship with God has been ruined by Adam.

Although we don't bear Adam's guilt...we are born servants of satan..
we present ourselves to satan...HE is the direction in which we are walking.
Romans 6:16

It's this direction that we must change.
And find life again...
But it will never be life as was in the beginning.

The sin nature affected everything...even nature itself.
Romans 8:21-22 Nature itself groans...waiting to be set free.

Adam, being the head of humanity, caused his own death and that of every man.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus died for all mankind.
She was part of the mankind Jesus died for.
It was still Jesus that saved her...
in some sense.
Because it doesn't mean she was perfect.
Only Jesus was perfect.
If Mary was perfect, in the true sense, then there would have been 2 perfect persons...
but there was only one.

It just makes sense to me.

agree with everything here

Jesus was not touched by mans seed, the HS touched mary's seed. Hence the sin of adam's did not pass down to him.

Mary however, was born of a man, her father would have passed adam's seed to her.

it is through adam that we are born dead. not eve (the woman)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Adam made all of humanity be born dead.
When he sinned, he sinned for all humanity and all the prevenient gifts he had were lost.
He had
immortality
infused knowledge
absence of the sin nature

Although we are not personally responsible for Adam's sin...
we do suffer for it and we are severed from God...
our perfect relationship with God has been ruined by Adam.

Although we don't bear Adam's guilt...we are born servants of satan..
we present ourselves to satan...HE is the direction in which we are walking.
Romans 6:16

It's this direction that we must change.
And find life again...
But it will never be life as was in the beginning.

The sin nature affected everything...even nature itself.
Romans 8:21-22 Nature itself groans...waiting to be set free.

Adam, being the head of humanity, caused his own death and that of every man.

but the nature does not make us guilty.

It is the sin that makes us guilty.

Us being guilty and having the relationship severed, is what brings in the nature.

God cannot serve us, so we must serve ourselves (we must fill the hole in our sole left when the relationship with God was severed)

 

[GodsGrace]

agree with everything here

Jesus was not touched by mans seed, the HS touched mary's seed. Hence the sin of adam's did not pass down to him.

Mary however, was born of a man, her father would have passed adam's seed to her.

it is through adam that we are born dead. not eve (the woman)

Right.
UNLESS God wants to make her be born sans the sin nature....
He can do miracles ya know!!

Wait...right that Jesus was not touched by man's seed but that of the Holy Spirit.
But Mary's "seed" was used, right?
So THIS is what is under discussion.

 

[GodsGrace]

but the nature does not make us guilty.

It is the sin that makes us guilty.

Us being guilty and having the relationship severed, is what brings in the nature.

God cannot serve us, so we must serve ourselves (we must fill the hole in our sole left when the relationship with God was severed)

Is it us being guilty to cause the sin nature...
or does the sin nature make us guilty?

I say the 2nd.

It's sin that make us guilty and what makes us sin is the sin nature.
This is why it's important to understand that children are not responsible for their sinful actions.

They have the sin nature embedded in them...
but they have not sinned, disobeyed God, until they understand what sin is.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Right.
UNLESS God wants to make her be born sans the sin nature....

if he wanted to. HS would have touched her mothers seed as he did mary's seed.

He can do miracles ya know!!

Then why did the HS have to touch maries seed. why could have Joseph not just been his physical father?

Wait...right that Jesus was not touched by man's seed but that of the Holy Spirit.
But Mary's "seed" was used, right?
So THIS is what is under discussion.

Marys seed. is it perfect? Since the fall of man is passed through adam, Is the womans seed affected?

Again, Why did the HS have to touch marys seed, and not marys mothers seed

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Is it us being guilty to cause the sin nature...
or does the sin nature make us guilty?

neither

we were born guilty (in adam)
yet we were not guilty yet of personal sin

I say the 2nd.

I disagree, the sin nature is the nature to sin, not sin itself

It's sin that make us guilty and what makes us sin is the sin nature.

But we are already dead years before we sin, we are born dead

This is why it's important to understand that children are not responsible for their sinful actions.

if they know they did wrong they are not responsible? Never heard this before

They have the sin nature embedded in them...

They do not have an excuse. romans 1 is clear on this

but they have not sinned, disobeyed God, until they understand what sin is.

But they were still dead in sin.

why?

the wage of sin is death, not the wage of the sin nature

 

[GodsGrace]

if he wanted to. HS would have touched her mothers seed as he did mary's seed.

How far back you wanna go?

Then why did the HS have to touch maries seed. why could have Joseph not just been his physical father?

It takes two to tango EG.
The mother also has a seed.
The mother also participates in a person's DNA.

Marys seed. is it perfect? Since the fall of man is passed through adam, Is the womans seed affected?

Great point.
Yes. It is.
All of creation is affected by Adam's sin.
Mary had a father, right?

Again, Why did the HS have to touch marys seed, and not marys mothers seed

Not necessary.
Mary was sufficient.

 

[Dizerner]

If you think about it, the virgin birth is the single least provable miracle in Scripture.

No one can verify it, see it, or even have any evidence of it except based on pure faith.

The purpose of this miracle must be a symbolic meaning when one considers this.

 

[GodsGrace]

neither

we were born guilty (in adam)
yet we were not guilty yet of personal sin

Were we guilty or not?
I agree that at birth we are not guilty of personal sin.
The entire bible teaches that we are responsible only for our own sins.

I disagree, the sin nature is the nature to sin, not sin itself

Agreed. Otherwise we'd all be going straight to hell.

But we are already dead years before we sin, we are born dead

if they know they did wrong they are not responsible? Never heard this before

So you believe that a 3 year old child goes to hell??

They do not have an excuse. romans 1 is clear on this

Correct. Agreed.
But not children.....
a person has to understand about God,,,about sin,,,its effect.
Children to not know what sin is.
I know this both biblically and through personal experience in teaching kids our faith.
A 10 year old will say he has never sinned.

But they were still dead in sin.

You're going to have to start with scripture if you really want to discuss this.

why?

the wage of sin is death, not the wage of the sin nature

Agreed.

 

[civic]

If you think about it, the virgin birth is the single least provable miracle in Scripture.

No one can verify it, see it, or even have any evidence of it except based on pure faith.

The purpose of this miracle must be a symbolic meaning when one considers this.

Jesus and the Apostles verified it and so did the Angel and the Father. Joseph did too as did Mary.

The eyewitness account is indisputable. It’s in Isaiah and the fulfilled prophecy