brightfame52
Active Member
It doesnt matter who it is, He said it. Eternal life is given to as many as God gave Him. The disciples were not the only people He gave eternal life to. So what you think, heaven going to be just the disciples ? lol
Is the word all ever used in a restricted sense ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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civic
Active Member
It was in John 17:2 passage you quoted. Keep reading
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay and ? Nothing reverses the statement in Vs 2
civic
Active Member
Verse 2 is about His disciples, the 12. I just proved it from the CONTEXT
civic
Active Member
And here is the preceding context of John 17:2 from John 16 below:
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
31“Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32;“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
31“Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32;“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
civic
Active Member
Now for the readers lets see the entire context so we can understand what Jesus meant in John 17:1-2
John 16:29-33
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
31“Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32;“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Notice the words after Jesus said this: meaning John 16 above
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
John 17:1-2
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Below Jesus continues praying for those in John 17:2.
John 17:6-12
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 16:29-33
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
31“Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32;“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
33“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Notice the words after Jesus said this: meaning John 16 above
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
John 17:1-2
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Below Jesus continues praying for those in John 17:2.
John 17:6-12
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
brightfame52
Active Member
I disagree, it includes them, however many more are included in that , they werent the only ones given eternal life. Many are included in the phrase"as many as"
civic
Active Member
nope not from the Scriptures I quoted. Jesus is specifically talking with and praying for the 12 with the exception of the one doomed for destruction that the scriptures would be fulfilled.
You do not believe Jesus teaching but your theology takes precedence over Jesus.
Its very Sadducee that you disagree with Jesus.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus will give eternal life for them He would be dying for, that's who the as many as are
civic
Active Member
not in John 17:2- you made that up again.
brightfame52
Active Member
No thats who the "as many as" given to Him are. You limited it to the disciples without warrant.
You failed to deal with New Testament scripture
1 Timothy 2:3–4 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
John 3:16–17For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.
1 Tim 4:10For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.
Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
Why?
You do understand the Father gave to Jesus those that were his at that time.
John 17:6–8 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, 8 because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me.
civic
Active Member
Yep
IndeedYep
atpollard
Active Member
So?
I am always cautious around anything that even seems to suggest that “that was for then and not for now” … which is contrary to the spirit of “God-breathed” scripture.
Does the Father own only the “cattle” on a thousand hills? Are there not still people that are His that He can give to the Son?
So?
There was simply not a lot of information the Israelites had received about the son and there was clearly no happening of the divine son taking upon himself humanity until that time
atpollard
Active Member
So you are of the opinion that Jesus was speaking TO and FOR the people hearing THEN and John 17:6-8 has no relevance to us, living today. (I disagree.)
Why did John include it? As stated in his Gospel, John's purpose was not to write a historic record, but to provide the information essential for those not present (future generations) to hear and believe. John would not include superfluous information that was inapplicable to his readers.
[Just to be clear, this does not mean that I agree with Brightframe52's Hard Determinism. I am just questioning the applicability of ALL of God-breathed scripture as being given TO and FOR us in the New Testament ... it is our covenant.]
brightfame52
Active Member
All of them are His, at all times. Jesus had sheep/people God had given to Him who had not yet heard His voice, but they will when its time. Jn 10:16,29
16 And other sheep I have[present tense], which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall[future tense] hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Those sheep were also given Him by the Father , how else could He have them ?
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 17:6–12 (NASB95) — 6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Now can you show me where I stated
"So you are of the opinion that Jesus was speaking TO and FOR the people hearing THEN and John 17:6-8 has no relevance to us, living today. (I disagree.)"
