Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[Presby02]

Well, He was around before I was... and therefore I cannot be charged with that heresy.

How would he know what they were?

Seriously?

How would he know who to predestine to Salvation?

He knows all. Do you not understand that.

He knows the beginning to the end.

I cannot believe you are such a fatalist.

What does " You bind Gods foreknowledge to your choices." even mean?

So you for one minute believe that God had no clue that Eve, then Adam
would screw up humanity?

Or do you believe that God actually made them that way so humanity would suffer?

Or is it not just possible God knew what they were capable of and the likely hood
that they could mess up before he breathed life into Adam?

He never limited the angels. They were not robots worshipping him they had their will
to worship or even be as "Helel" was (look it up)

Certainly He knew how Michael's and Gabriel's would be... else they would not have
been arch angels ... and He also knew "Helel's ways... and that he would be evil always.

Same as for you, and me.

And also Jeffrey Dahmer.... and Karla Faye Tucker's inclinations... so the one has been doomed and
the other was given what it took to make a total conversion.

Why do you not see this?

He is involved with salvation on both sides of the predestined coin... One allows us the opportunity
to over come ourselves, the other chooses to ignore ... period.

I agree, God is omniscient and knows all there is to logically lnow.

In your theology you free will choice is an illusion and your free choices are bound by Gds foreknowledge. I can prove it with one simple question. At the moment you make a choice, can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose? If you answer yes, you deny Gods omniscient. If you answer no your the fatalist.

 

[Presby02]

A sovereign God a do whatever he wants to with his creation at any given point of time. But that doesn’t mean that that is the rule, but rather the exception.

It could also mean that he simply foresees what the choice will be.

Both ideas avoid meticulous predetermination!

Doug

Its not the rule? Who says? Where do you get that from?

Except it says planned and determined, brought about by His hand. Or was Gods plan bound by mans choices?

 

[Presby02]

Which comes first, God’s choice that I must choose X, or my choice to choose X. Which choice makes it necessary?

If the answer is God’s, then I have no freedom of choice. God has determined everything, including my desires which govern my choices.

Doug

Temporally or eternally?

Not only your desires, as your creator, but He is also sovereign over the circumstances you find yourself in. He us soverign over all contingencies. Events play exactly as He has planned them to.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I agree, God is omniscient and knows all there is to logically lnow.

In your theology you free will choice is an illusion and your free choices are bound by Gds foreknowledge. I can prove it with one simple question. At the moment you make a choice, can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose? If you answer yes, you deny Gods omniscient. If you answer no your the fatalist.

I am not the fatalist here.

can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose?

Of course... _______!

You can change your mind but with foreknowledge He would know you were going to.

Repeating:

God's foreknowledge means He knows in advance who will choose to have faith in Him, but it does not force individuals to make those choices. Instead, it allows for the belief that God guides and influences people towards faith while still respecting their free will.

Why you find this difficult to understand is beyond me.

You know... though I guess you don't... I lived for 5 decades with an overly controlling dad who somehow knew and tried to control my every move and if I varied in my every move disapprovingly by him it was countered by a negative.

It is so wonderful that my Heavenly Father loves me enough to allow me to have free will at last and through all of the times I turned his hair... if he has any... grey,. he guided and chided ( yes, and I knew it) and showed me the way without once making me feel as if he were turning from me if I did not get it.... with the patience I can only wish I had.
I love my Heavenly Father beyond measure. And Lord Jesus , and The Holy Spirit.

We have a wonderful relationship. Non-coerced but with freedom.

I never once felt God had determined my eternal fate before my birth.

I never once felt God's using such as preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit, to lead to my conversion. That if God predestined me for salvation my faith was a responding to His calling and grace.

Oh, certainly I experienced the preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit which made me want more and then I wanted to be born again, and all that goes with that.... But then He knew that I would .

Perhaps he predestines those who are so reluctant they need an extra push?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Temporally or eternally?

Not only your desires, as your creator, but He is also sovereign over the circumstances you find yourself in. He us soverign over all contingencies. Events play exactly as He has planned them to.

Sovereignty doesn't require such nonsense. There is only one will of God. God isn't doubled minded. You are.

Sovergnity includes allowing things to happen that God doesn't like. God gifts power to humanity to cause their own outcomes within a limiting framework that fades away right before man's eyes. You're experiencing such yourself. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. That includes you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not the fatalist here.

can you choose other than how God knows your going to choose?

Of course... _______!

You can change your mind but with foreknowledge He would know you were going to.

Repeating:

God's foreknowledge means He knows in advance who will choose to have faith in Him, but it does not force individuals to make those choices. Instead, it allows for the belief that God guides and influences people towards faith while still respecting their free will.

Why you find this difficult to understand is beyond me.

You know... though I guess you don't... I lived for 5 decades with an overly controlling dad who somehow knew and tried to control my every move and if I varied in my every move disapprovingly by him it was countered by a negative.

It is so wonderful that my Heavenly Father loves me enough to allow me to have free will at last and through all of the times I turned his hair... if he has any... grey,. he guided and chided ( yes, and I knew it) and showed me the way without once making me feel as if he were turning from me if I did not get it.... with the patience I can only wish I had.
I love my Heavenly Father beyond measure. And Lord Jesus , and The Holy Spirit.

We have a wonderful relationship. Non-coerced but with freedom.

I never once felt God had determined my eternal fate before my birth.

I never once felt God's using such as preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit, to lead to my conversion. That if God predestined me for salvation my faith was a responding to His calling and grace.

Oh, certainly I experienced the preaching, personal experiences, and the work of the Holy Spirit which made me want more and then I wanted to be born again, and all that goes with that.... But then He knew that I would .

Perhaps he predestines those who are so reluctant they need an extra push

Meticulous determinism is fatalism. The idea that there is a temporal difference even in the knowledge of God is destroyed by the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Mind can not be separated from the will.

 

[civic]

Meticulous determinism is fatalism. The idea that there is a temporal difference even in the knowledge of God is destroyed by the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Mind can not be separated from the will.

Ditto Calvinism is determinism which is fatalism

 

[TibiasDad]

Temporally or eternally?

Not only your desires, as your creator, but He is also sovereign over the circumstances you find yourself in. He us soverign over all contingencies. Events play exactly as He has planned them to.

Exactly, thus there is no freedom for man to choose other than what God has planned. God’s plan and desire eliminates personal choice. The Reformed system had to redefine freedom sacrificing logic on its altar of paradox.

The slaves of the 1700 and 1800’s were not free to do anything that their owners didn’t want. The owners were sovereign and required their slaves to do their bidding. There was no freedom, that’s why they’re called slaves.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

Exactly, thus there is no freedom for man to choose other than what God has planned. God’s plan and desire eliminates personal choice. The Reformed system had to redefine freedom sacrificing logic on its altar of paradox.

The slaves of the 1700 and 1800’s were not free to do anything that their owners didn’t want. The owners were sovereign and required their slaves to do their bidding. There was no freedom, that’s why they’re called slaves.

Doug

Paradox? So you concede God plans and determines free choices such as those involved in the crucifixion? Was Judas held responsible for what God planned and determined for Him to do??

So they had no free time to do what they wished? Such as getting married? Having children?

So as a slave to sin, prior to being given belief and repentance, you had no freedom to repent and believe?

 

[Presby02]

Sovereignty doesn't require such nonsense. There is only one will of God. God isn't doubled minded. You are.

Sovergnity includes allowing things to happen that God doesn't like. God gifts power to humanity to cause their own outcomes within a limiting framework that fades away right before man's eyes. You're experiencing such yourself. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. That includes you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You had responded to my


With
Sure. Jesus Christ. Which is why I said that we must start with Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY ONE NAMED to have preexisted and been purposed. To add anyone else to this list is to not justly recognizing the Glory due such a position.

I agree 100% with this but there are those, even in the debate that will argue Jesus never became the Son of God until His birth from Mary. And that his Pre-determined reason for being was from that point forward.

IOW they feel that when it was time for the Messiah, Savior to enter into things it was not from the Son of God who preexisted before time but strictly was from the moment of the incarnation that He became the Son... and even with proof that the Word was that one made flesh they deny the Word was ever the Son.

Are the thoughts of God sequential? Precept upon precept? Or is all the knowledge of God contained in a singular all encompassing thought without order?

 

[TibiasDad]

Paradox? So you concede God plans and determines free choices such as those involved in the crucifixion?

No, I am simply agreeing with another poster on what pre-determination looks like. I don’t hold that it is true.

So they had no free time to do what they wished? Such as getting married? Having children?

Not in the same sense that we have today. The masters/owners had to approve of such, and often separated the wife from the husband. Masters would allow them to procreate and thereby increase the number of slaves he would have.


Doug

 

[FreeInChrist]

Are the thoughts of God sequential? Precept upon precept? Or is all the knowledge of God contained in a singular all encompassing thought without order?

I would suspect both.

Mortal example: extremely simple

The all encompassing thoughts of going to Florida by the auto train. For I see the entire concept as one big picture.

A complete vision is in mind, but then enters the thought process of sequential steps to make it happen.

I would imagine when God was creating his blueprint of creation annd how it would be that he had an all-encompassing idea.
But to execute such it was by steps.

At least it was presented that way in Genesis 1, yet if one compares Gen 1 and 2... Two is randomized.

Its a good study for any who like that sort of thing

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would suspect both.

Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect.

Mortal example: extremely simple

I can agree to a certain degree. Flesh is often rather simple. However, add the Spirit of God within flesh and things get very complicated at times.

The all encompassing thoughts of going to Florida by the auto train. For I see the entire concept as one big picture.

Precept upon precept. Line upon line create that "big picture".

Isa 28:9 “To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast?
Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.”

A complete vision is in mind, but then enters the thought process of sequential steps to make it happen.

I would disagree. By adding thoughts of how to accomplish His will that mixed with the will of others. Progress and continual action is required. God didn't just make one choice and everything falls into the order.

I would imagine when God was creating his blueprint of creation annd how it would be that he had an all-encompassing idea.
But to execute such it was by steps.

At least it was presented that way in Genesis 1, yet if one compares Gen 1 and 2... Two is randomized.

Its a good study for any who like that sort of thing

I think you're missing the context I mentioned of first Jesus Christ. Predestination is all about Jesus Christ. In order to bring about the willingness of the creature, God predetermined that life as we know it to teach us. To lead us. To lead and at times possibly drive us to know God through experience. That takes time and continual effort.

I've discovered in my life that l don't really appreciate gifts until I understand what they mean. It is difficult to express with words what is in the heart of God without coming to that willing realization yourself.

If all God wanted was children of Abraham, then that can come from stones. Conforming men into the image of Jesus Christ (the original intent of creation) has taken some time. It is still taking time. It is a process. The very nature of Longsuffering in the Character of God tells us God doesn't mind waiting for the willing. Willingness receives assistance. Help.

So Adam was the beginning of conformity to Jesus Christ. Not the end.

If you can accept the fulness of these facts, your theology will fit together like glove that you can't even feel on your hand. You will not perceive where you are and where your theology begins. Living the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only means to learn willingness to please God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect.



I can agree to a certain degree. Flesh is often rather simple. However, add the Spirit of God within flesh and things get very complicated at times.



Precept upon precept. Line upon line create that "big picture".

Isa 28:9 “To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast?
Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.”



I would disagree. By adding thoughts of how to accomplish His will that mixed with the will of others. Progress and continual action is required. God didn't just make one choice and everything falls into the order.



I think you're missing the context I mentioned of first Jesus Christ. Predestination is all about Jesus Christ. In order to bring about the willingness of the creature, God predetermined that life as we know it to teach us. To lead us. To lead and at times possibly drive us to know God through experience. That takes time and continual effort.

I missed nothing. I do not agree.

I've discovered in my life that l don't really appreciate gifts until I understand what they mean. It is difficult to express with words what is in the heart of God without coming to that willing realization yourself.

If all God wanted was children of Abraham, then that can come from stones. Conforming men into the image of Jesus Christ (the original intent of creation) has taken some time. It is still taking time. It is a process. The very nature of Longsuffering in the Character of God tells us God doesn't mind waiting for the willing. Willingness receives assistance. Help.

So Adam was the beginning of conformity to Jesus Christ. Not the end.

If you can accept the fulness of these facts, your theology will fit together like glove that you can't even feel on your hand. You will not perceive where you are and where your theology begins. Living the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only means to learn willingness to please God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I missed nothing. I do not agree.

I don't understand how you disagree?

If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

 

[Presby02]

No, I am simply agreeing with another poster on what pre-determination looks like. I don’t hold that it is true.

Not in the same sense that we have today. The masters/owners had to approve of such, and often separated the wife from the husband. Masters would allow them to procreate and thereby increase the number of slaves he would have.


Doug

Not in the same sinse? So in what sense?

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don't understand how you disagree?

You said " Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect."

I disagree because it not always does. When you multitask things often blurr to the point of no order.
A decision has to be made and if you chose to un multitask. Fine... You will be back to order.

In a case like I am... I just keep the multitaking up until all is done.

Same with replying to differing threads and subjects in different forum.

It is more of a balancing act.

If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

Wrong order imo...
You
The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Agreed, but there would be no need for "willingness" when the creature hass come to seek themselves. Then the Willingness of Christ acts

You
If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

You are not a trin are you? I need to start a score card.

There is no argument . Jesus WAS predetermined. As the messiah, what do you think was the reason he was sent?
Yes, all things must answer to that choice for that reason..... Either with a for as we have seen, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel... and not all of them fell into line. The offer was made, the reasons for the offer were explained and still some said no due to inability to understand or due to what they preferred.

I do not expect you to understand.

You
Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

This requires no comment.... DUH.

 

[civic]

You said " Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect."

I disagree because it not always does. When you multitask things often blurr to the point of no order.
A decision has to be made and if you chose to un multitask. Fine... You will be back to order.

In a case like I am... I just keep the multitaking up until all is done.

Same with replying to differing threads and subjects in different forum.

It is more of a balancing act.

Wrong order imo...
You
The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Agreed, but there would be no need for "willingness" when the creature hass come to seek themselves. Then the Willingness of Christ acts

You
If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

You are not a trin are you? I need to start a score card.

There is no argument . Jesus WAS predetermined. As the messiah, what do you think was the reason he was sent?
Yes, all things must answer to that choice for that reason..... Either with a for as we have seen, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel... and not all of them fell into line. The offer was made, the reasons for the offer were explained and still some said no due to inability to understand or due to what they preferred.

I do not expect you to understand.

You
Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

This requires no comment.... DUH.

Yes he is a Trinitarian for sure

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said " Even thought requires order. Sequence. Cause and effect."

I disagree because it not always does. When you multitask things often blurr to the point of no order.
A decision has to be made and if you chose to un multitask. Fine... You will be back to order.

Even when you multitask those thoughts themselves have order. It is called concurrent processing. However, there is no such thing as thoughts without sequence. Cause and effect. I know, I build things.

In a case like I am... I just keep the multitaking up until all is done.

Without order of events, there is no process. It is called chaos.

Same with replying to differing threads and subjects in different forum.

Nope. You maybe fast but there is always an order of events. I know. I build things.

It is more of a balancing act.

Balance requires order. 1,2,3,4,5,6 Even concurrent acts must be reassembled in order.

Wrong order imo...
You
The willingness of Christ alone requires the willingness of the creature.

Agreed, but there would be no need for "willingness" when the creature hass come to seek themselves. Then the Willingness of Christ acts

Can you rephrase. I don't understand.

You
If Jesus Christ was predetermined, God's choice above all, then all things must answer to that choice.

You are not a trin are you? I need to start a score card.

Yes. I know it better than most anyone else.

There is no argument . Jesus WAS predetermined. As the messiah, what do you think was the reason he was sent?
Yes, all things must answer to that choice for that reason..... Either with a for as we have seen, Jesus came only for the lost sheep of Israel... and not all of them fell into line. The offer was made, the reasons for the offer were explained and still some said no due to inability to understand or due to what they preferred.

To make man in God's likeness and after His image. I think I've already said this.

I do not expect you to understand.

You
Divinity requires sequential thought when an opposing will is variable.

This requires no comment.... DUH.

Then why do you insist that God's thought have no order?