Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[FreeInChrist]

I have no other goal than to know the Truth and stand upon the Truth. I don't want you to bow to anything. Your position is right or it is wrong. A little leaven does what?

This conversation is about the worthiness of Jesus Christ. First in all things. The Glory and honor due Him is not dependent upon any of us. You and I included.

You are placing God's choices in yourself and others besides Jesus Christ. That is my issue.

That is a bold faced lie because God is not only YHWH, the Father, but also the Son, and also the Holy Spirit.
They are equal with each having ...ummm lets just say specific things to do.

Anytime I use the singular term God, in my mine I am thinking and meaning all three.

When I single out Jesus it is based on a specific something he has said or done.

When I single out the Holy Spirit it is based on what He has done ad His ongoing doing living in us.

When I speak of God it is in the collective sense unless I say God predestined or God has foreknowledge because nothing in this world came about by only one of them. It was a collective effort.

Even the birth of the Word becoming flesh came about with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and Son.

So stop saying I am ignoring because I am the only on that incorporates all three in every thing I say but from not on, so you are not confused I will just say the Trinity instead of God.

C.S. Lewis began this modern theory that God sits outside of time and thusly is not subject to order. Which is what you're presenting..... though you don't realize you are.

You have this fascination with a person I never read, and have no desires to.

So lets narrow this a little more.....

If all things God already exist so that God knows Himself and everything else that is created, then God is without doubt "quantifiable" in this "theory".

What is it that you believe that God does not know, now or throughout the past near 6000 years?

Since you say you reject this, then tell me how you're different?

Let's just say I lean very Messianic and let it be.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You have zero idea of who was chosen before the foundstiond of the eaaarth to fulfill God's plans.

You apparently do. What do you know that I don't know? There is no need to make arguments that are equally true or potentially... equally true of both of us.

I know what the Scriptures say. In this, I have the advantage over you.

Jesus Christ was the Only Person chosen before the foundation of the world. He is alone in such. He is above all. If someone else was chosen in the same manner, they would be equally honored.

Even you could not be so dense as to believe all that were lifted to greatness just happened randomly.

The call is the same for all. Circumstances vary. Responsibility is the same. When a person willingly embraces Jesus Christ, they become a new creature. OLD THINGS are passed away. ALL THINGS become new. Then it really gets complicated.

Being saved isn't about being elected personally before the foundation of the world. That is a selfish honor that some bestow upon one another. The elect are a unnamed group only called in Jesus Christ.

If you are a predestined believer then there would be little doubt about any of them because they all were in the plan..

So we finally get here. It always gets here in the conversation.

You believe you were personally targeted for salvation. The "elect". You weren't. Jesus Christ is the choice. You have an identity in Jesus Christ or you have none at all.

But you seem to think only Jesus was....

I disagree. I disagree.

I suspected such. Arminians and Calvinists both believe this. Arminians will deny it until conversation like this one take place. Then you'll find out that really do.

Jesus is the only one named personally. If you were chosen like Jesus Christ then you're equal to Jesus Christ. You're not. You only have what He provides.

Jeramiah 1:5 states Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Galatians 1: 1;15-16 states
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Yeah. I already knew those verses. Didn't have to look them up. I know what they say. This isn't my first rodeo in this.

Again. Samuel is a perfect example. So you have Samuel chosen because of Hanna. You have Isaac chosen because of Abraham and Sarah. You have Jeremiah chosen because of the faithful among his family. You have Paul chosen because of the faith among his family. Faith is generational and multigenerational.

There is nothing hear about "FIRST" being "Chosen".

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is a bold faced lie because God is not only YHWH, the Father, but also the Son, and also the Holy Spirit.
They are equal with each having ...ummm lets just say specific things to do.

Not at all. You placed yourself equal to being chosen just like Jesus Christ. I first had this argument close to 30 years ago with trained Calvinists. It is my argument. I've done well with it over the years. It makes people angry but that anger isn't really meaningful. Truth has caused more division than a lie ever has.

If you were chosen just like Jesus Christ, then YOU are worthy of praise. God doesn't make bad choices. God's choices are worthy of praise.

Jesus Christ wasn't worthy because of what He did during His Advent. He has ALWAYS BEEN WORTHY. God the Father said before Jesus's ministry....

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jesus Christ is Impeccable. Eternally worthy.

Us.... not even close.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Judas. Some say it was God's foreknowledge that Judas would betray Jesus. Not predestination yet other say he was... predestined.

So what of this foreknowledge idea?

Foreknowledge is power. Power to bring about the future. God has this. However, we do too. So does Satan. So does fallen angels and good angels.

There isn't anything that God doesn't know relative to what could happen. Foreknowledge is God's power to bring about His own will.

God's foreknowledge in Christ and the elect is centered around conformity.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Notice, what God knows. God knows Himself in Christ. YOU are being conformed. YOU are not your own. YOU are not what you should be or what you will be.

Christ is Eternal. ALWAYS the same. Jesus Christ the goal of Adam. The goal of making man in His own Image and after His own likeness.

Church of God International teaches To correctly understand these passages, it is essential that we understand that eternal life in the Kingdom of God is the proper destiny of every member of the human race! This does not mean that every individual will arrive at the destiny God has set before the human race. Rather, it means that God's purpose for humankind was established before the foundation of the world was laid, and that all who cooperate with Him will reach their proper destination. Hence, He "chose us [all who, through exercise of their divinely bestowed free will, accept His universal offer] in Him before the foundation of the world," and "predestined us [the whole race, potentially] to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ." Predestination, then, pertains to the purpose God had in mind when He decided to make creatures bearing His own image and likeness. It concerns the destination God established for the human race before He put humans on this planet.

Likewise, in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said: "He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

Ill stop now

No. God chose Himself in Jesus Christ. Not you. Not me. Not even Adam. You will either be conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ or you will be rejected. I will be rejected.

Some conformity is beyond us but much of it isn't. We bare the responsibility to change to be conformed.

Again. The choice is Jesus Christ. It is not us. It is Jesus Christ. In God's benevolence and Character it is Gracious for God to include us in such blessings. However, God never chose Adam. Flesh shall not glory in His Presence.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[FreeInChrist]

C.S. Lewis began this modern theory that God sits outside of time and thusly is not subject to order. Which is what you're presenting..... though you don't realize you are.

One final comment. As I said I never read CS Lewis.... sounds too occultish to me.

Does he make that claim because the bible states

AI says ... In many religious beliefs, God is considered to be outside of time, meaning He exists beyond the constraints of past, present, and future. This concept suggests that God is eternal and knows all events simultaneously.

They go on

• Scriptures often emphasize that God knows all things, including the future. For example, it is stated that "known unto God are all His works from the beginning" (Acts 15).
• Jesus, in the New Testament, mentions that only the Father knows the exact time of certain events, highlighting a distinction in knowledge within the Trinity.
• God's timelessness suggests that He sees all of history at once, rather than sequentially.
• This perspective can provide comfort, as believers trust that God is aware of their circumstances and the unfolding of events in their lives.

Understanding that God transcends time can deepen one's faith and perspective on life's challenges and uncertainties.

And Bible hub is a contributor here.

You do not agree?

Jeremiah 29:11​

“For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” – Jeremiah 29:11

Romans 8:28​

“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” – Romans 8:28

Ephesians 1:11​

“In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” – Ephesians 1:11

Isaiah 46:10​

“I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'” – Isaiah 46:10

If the following is what CS Lewis was alluding to...... he was spot on IMO and I do agree.

What is the relationship between God and time? - Compelling Truth

God created time and is, therefore, outside of it and not bound to it. However, God also ministers to His creation inside of time, all the while not diminishing His divinity.

www.compellingtruth.org

Compelling Truth

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What is the relationship between God and time?​

TL;DR:​

God created time and is, therefore, outside of it and not bound to it. However, God also ministers to His creation inside of time, all the while not diminishing His divinity.

what does the bible say?​

God created time and exists outside of it, unbound by its limitations. Yet He also works within time to accomplish His purposes and care for His people. From creation to salvation, the Bible shows that God planned everything—even before time began. Jesus, fully God and fully human, entered time to dwell with us and now intercedes for us in real time. Because God is both eternal and present, we can trust Him with our future and find comfort in His nearness today.

from the old testament​

• Time began when God created the universe—He is eternal and exists outside of time (Genesis 1:1; Psalm 90:2); time is inherent in creation, as seen in the sun, moon, and stars made on the fourth day to mark days and seasons (Genesis 1:14–19), meaning that when God created the cosmos, He also created the time-bound structure in which it operates.
• God visibly entered time to reveal Himself and to dwell with His people (Exodus 40:34–38).
• God is outside of time because He existed before it. Moses, who recorded the Genesis account, said, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting, You are God” (Psalm 90:2). Being “from everlasting to everlasting” means that He is eternal and timeless.
• God, speaking to the people of Israel through Isaiah, refers to Himself as, “The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 40:28b). Being everlasting means that God is outside of time. While we think in terms of beginning, middle, and end, God sees all of time at once.
• Though God exists outside of time, His omnipresence means He also works within time to accomplish His purposes and care for His people—like guiding Israel daily by cloud and fire (Exodus 13:21).

from the new testament​

• John alluded to Genesis 1:1 in John 1:1 when he said, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” The “Word” is Jesus, the Son of God (John 1:14–18). John continued, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made” (John 1:3). The Son of God is said to have been with the Father “in the beginning” and that all of creation came through Him. The Son and Father co-existed before there was time.
• Similarly, Paul said in Colossians about Jesus: “He is the image of the invisible God …. by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together” (Colossians 1:15 a, 16–17). As God, Jesus existed before all things because He is the Creator of all things.
• God planned salvation before time. For example, in 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul says about believers, “[God] who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our works, but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.” In Ephesians, he also said, “[the Father] chose us in [Jesus] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him” (Ephesians 1:4). The “foundation of the world” is a way of describing the first creation act. Even before that, believers were chosen in Jesus for salvation.
• Not only was our salvation planned before creation, our good works were also planned before time! “We are [the Father’s] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we would walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10).
• For God, time is “nothing.” In 2 Peter, we read, “with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8). While Peter was not making a specific argument that God is outside of time, what he was saying was that God’s relationship to time is much different than ours. We see the slow passage of time, but for God, time is nothing of significance. One day and one-thousand days are exactly alike to God. That makes sense when considering that God created it and stands outside of it.
• However, though He is outside of time, God entered into time. This is most clearly displayed when the Son of God added on humanity (Philippians 2:6–8). Though He is fully God, He also became fully human. Because He is God, the Son of God is omni-present and transcendent (outside of time). However, as human, Jesus is also localized and lived day-by-day like the rest of us.
• Evidence of Jesus’ time-bound humanity include that He was born a baby (Luke 2:1–7), grew older (Luke 2:42), and learned obedience (Hebrews 5:8). Also, He could be wearied as a day wore on (John 4:1–6) and see things more clearly after the passage of time (Mark 11:12–13). In His humanity, Jesus was just like us, including being time bound!
• Jesus currently ministers in His humanity, personally interceding for each believer in real time (Hebrews 7:25).

implications for today​

We have a transcendent God, meaning He created time and is outside of it. However, He is also an immanent God, meaning He is near us, inside of time. God controls time yet also enters it to minister to we who are bound by it. Because God is outside of time, we can trust everything that is in our future is under His watchful eye. We can rest in the fact that though we can’t see what tomorrow brings (Matthew 6:25–34), not only does God know, but He has actively planned our future for His glory and our good (Romans 8:28). That is, indeed, comforting!

Being inside of time means that He is near us, particularly with regards to believers. He knows our struggles right now. It is not just a knowledge that humans are suffering in general, but He is there when things go horribly bad, and He is there when things are unbelievably great. He knows our trials and our joys. What’s more, because the Son of God added on humanity, He experientially knows what life is like and can sympathize with us (Hebrews 4:15). As we go through this life, He intercedes for us…in real time (Hebrews 7:25).

What a great God we have. Trust Him fully because time is “nothing” to Him—it’s a speck in His eternal hand, and He knew the end even before He created the beginning. But also praise Him that He is not a distant, hands-off God but that He cares deeply for you…by name! You are known by Him and, if you are a believer, you are being individually cared for by Him on a day-by-day, hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute basis.

 

[praise_yeshua]

One final comment. As I said I never read CS Lewis.... sounds too occultish to me.

C.S. Lewis was a talented writer. Educated and informed. So was Tolkien. Tolkien was a Trinitarian of the first order.

Both are worth knowing a little. The rest, I'll deal with a little later. Thanks for working with me.

 

[FreeInChrist]

C.S. Lewis was a talented writer. Educated and informed. So was Tolkien. Tolkien was a Trinitarian of the first order.

Both are worth knowing a little. The rest, I'll deal with a little later. Thanks for working with me.

I am done.

I can say no more.

I am old and with one leg nearly in the grave, I certainly do not need the castigations that have been coming forth.

Working with you?

More like a whipping post because no matter what I say you absolutely counter that.

Have a nice life.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am done.

I can say no more.

I am old and with one leg nearly in the grave, I certainly do not need the castigations that have been coming forth.

Working with you?

More like a whipping post because no matter what I say you absolutely counter that.

Have a nice life.....

Okay. Just to be clear. I'm not trying to be agreeable. Jesus asked His disciples....

"Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth".

I'm not trying to be Christ. Just arguing the point. There isn't anyone here that can argue these points with me. You gave me the opportunity to share what Predestination actually is. I thank you for that.

Take care. We are all getting older. I don't know how much time I have left. I pray you serve Him beyond all measure.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Okay. Just to be clear. I'm not trying to be agreeable. Jesus asked His disciples....

"Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth".

Because what you perceive to be "the" truth, you make me out to be either incompetent or a liar. And I am neither of those.

I'm not trying to be Christ. Just arguing the point. There isn't anyone here that can argue these points with me. You gave me the opportunity to share what Predestination actually is. I thank you for that.

Take care. We are all getting older. I don't know how much time I have left. I pray you serve Him beyond all measure.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because what you perceive to be "the" truth, you make me out to be either incompetent or a liar. And I am neither of those.

I've been where you are. I didn't stay there. We all are wrong to some degree. It is just knowing where.

I've said publicly many times, I want to know where I'm wrong. It is not a matter of "if" it is a matter of "where". I press forward. I've not arrived. However, I do know these subjects very well. I treasure them.

 

[atpollard]

"C.S. Lewis began this modern theory that God sits outside of time and thusly is not subject to order."

Actually, no C.S. Lewis did not begin it (from AI search):

The concept of God existing outside of time was significantly developed by early Christian theologians like Saint Augustine, Boethius, and Thomas Aquinas, who argued that God is timeless, existing in an "eternal now" rather than a temporal stream. While not the first to articulate it, the idea builds upon earlier concepts of a timeless, uncreated God found in both the Bible and philosophical traditions, such as the Greek concept of the unmoved mover.​

​

Key Figures and Their Contributions:​

• Saint Augustine (354–430 CE): A foundational figure in Western thought, Augustine explored the nature of time and God's relationship to it, arguing that God's existence is timeless and that time itself was created by God.
• Boethius (c. 480–524 or 525 CE): In his work Consolation of Philosophy, Boethius articulated the idea of God's eternity as a present, all-inclusive moment, which became a cornerstone for the concept of God as outside of time.
• Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274): Aquinas integrated Aristotelian philosophy with Christian theology, developing the idea that God's existence is not within time but rather eternal, existing all at once rather than sequentially.

Philosophical and Theological Roots:​

• Biblical Foundations: Passages in the Bible describe God as having always existed and as the creator of time, implying that God exists beyond the created temporal framework.
• Ancient Greek Philosophy: The concept of a necessary, uncaused "unmoved mover" by Aristotle provided a philosophical basis for a divine being that is not subject to change or time.

In summary, while various cultures and religions have concepts of a supreme being that is eternal, the idea of God being outside of time as a distinct philosophical and theological doctrine was most prominently developed and argued for by early medieval Christian thinkers such as Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas.​

​

 

[praise_yeshua]

"C.S. Lewis began this modern theory that God sits outside of time and thusly is not subject to order."

Actually, no C.S. Lewis did not begin it (from AI search):

The concept of God existing outside of time was significantly developed by early Christian theologians like Saint Augustine, Boethius, and Thomas Aquinas, who argued that God is timeless, existing in an "eternal now" rather than a temporal stream. While not the first to articulate it, the idea builds upon earlier concepts of a timeless, uncreated God found in both the Bible and philosophical traditions, such as the Greek concept of the unmoved mover.​

​

Key Figures and Their Contributions:​

• Saint Augustine (354–430 CE): A foundational figure in Western thought, Augustine explored the nature of time and God's relationship to it, arguing that God's existence is timeless and that time itself was created by God.
• Boethius (c. 480–524 or 525 CE): In his work Consolation of Philosophy, Boethius articulated the idea of God's eternity as a present, all-inclusive moment, which became a cornerstone for the concept of God as outside of time.
• Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274): Aquinas integrated Aristotelian philosophy with Christian theology, developing the idea that God's existence is not within time but rather eternal, existing all at once rather than sequentially.

Philosophical and Theological Roots:​

• Biblical Foundations: Passages in the Bible describe God as having always existed and as the creator of time, implying that God exists beyond the created temporal framework.
• Ancient Greek Philosophy: The concept of a necessary, uncaused "unmoved mover" by Aristotle provided a philosophical basis for a divine being that is not subject to change or time.

In summary, while various cultures and religions have concepts of a supreme being that is eternal, the idea of God being outside of time as a distinct philosophical and theological doctrine was most prominently developed and argued for by early medieval Christian thinkers such as Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas.​

​

AI......

I don't see anything in what you posted from your "AI" of choice that establishes I'm wrong about what I stated. I knew what I'm sharing with you before AI became a glorified search engine of top ranked results.

If you're going to have this argument with me, be prepared. Are you prepared? Don't expect me to bow to your AI. They are usually wrong when it comes to theological questions and you obviously don't know enough about it to narrow the response you need to make this argument for them.

When I said "outside of time", I wasn't saying that God is "timeless". Those are two different arguments. Pay attention.

Now, go back to your AI of choice and narrow you comments to match what I said.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"C.S. Lewis began this modern theory that God sits outside of time and thusly is not subject to order."

Actually, no C.S. Lewis did not begin it (from AI search):

The concept of God existing outside of time was significantly developed by early Christian theologians like Saint Augustine, Boethius, and Thomas Aquinas, who argued that God is timeless, existing in an "eternal now" rather than a temporal stream. While not the first to articulate it, the idea builds upon earlier concepts of a timeless, uncreated God found in both the Bible and philosophical traditions, such as the Greek concept of the unmoved mover.​

​

Key Figures and Their Contributions:​

• Saint Augustine (354–430 CE): A foundational figure in Western thought, Augustine explored the nature of time and God's relationship to it, arguing that God's existence is timeless and that time itself was created by God.
• Boethius (c. 480–524 or 525 CE): In his work Consolation of Philosophy, Boethius articulated the idea of God's eternity as a present, all-inclusive moment, which became a cornerstone for the concept of God as outside of time.
• Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274): Aquinas integrated Aristotelian philosophy with Christian theology, developing the idea that God's existence is not within time but rather eternal, existing all at once rather than sequentially.

Philosophical and Theological Roots:​

• Biblical Foundations: Passages in the Bible describe God as having always existed and as the creator of time, implying that God exists beyond the created temporal framework.
• Ancient Greek Philosophy: The concept of a necessary, uncaused "unmoved mover" by Aristotle provided a philosophical basis for a divine being that is not subject to change or time.

In summary, while various cultures and religions have concepts of a supreme being that is eternal, the idea of God being outside of time as a distinct philosophical and theological doctrine was most prominently developed and argued for by early medieval Christian thinkers such as Augustine, Boethius, and Aquinas.​

​

Just as an example of how to narrow down a proper response from an AI.....

Here is a response from Grok relative to C.S. Lewis not using the English word "Timeless" in his writings.

"Theological Precision: Lewis avoids “timeless” in most theological contexts because it risks implying a static, impersonal eternity, which could conflict with his view of God as personal, relational, and actively involved in creation. “Timeless” might suggest a Platonic or abstract state, detached from cause and effect, whereas “outside of time” conveys God’s transcendence over temporal sequence while preserving divine agency and responsiveness."