Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[TomL]

To begin with. The word isn't "formed". It should be "shapen". It the same context of how David talked about what many consider "inherited original sin"

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Before I get into to the intricate details of the mistakes being made in this teaching.

May I ask, if what you say is true, then what is the difference between how you say Jeremiah was purposed and how Christ was purposed?

That question is essential because it creates a rank within God's choices and purpose. To me, you're treating Jeremiah with the exact same quality of purpose as Jesus Christ. Exact same.

God can, in the corporate view of election select particular men to accomplish that which he desires. That, however, would not grant them the same quality of purpose as Jesus Christ in whom alone is salvation.

In the passage Jer 1:5 God's foreknowledge also appears in view.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God can, in the corporate view of election select particular men to accomplish that which he desires. That, however, would not grant them the same quality of purpose as Jesus Christ in whom alone is salvation.

In the passage Jer 1:5 God's foreknowledge also appears in view.

I see a claim without evidence nor reason to establish that claim. Christ wasn't "shaped" in the womb. Jeremiah didn't preexist.

Comparing Jeremiah to Christ requires a rank of purpose. Jeremiah wasn't God's choice.

You're bringing the baggage of what you've been taught into this. You are assuming what you were taught is right. You shouldn't do this. The fact you saw a difference in the questions you first asked me tell me that you really don't know or understand this.

Like I've told you and others here, this feud that exists between Arminians and Calvinists does nothing for the Truth. It is nothing but a distraction. Most all of you here have been influenced by it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In view one foreknowledge, men are elected based on God's foreknowledge of them.

Election and Foreknowledge​

An Essay ByFred Zaspel

​

Definition​

Foreknowledge, with reference to God, connotes foreordination. The doctrine of election affirms that God chose those whom he would save.

Summary​

The question at issue here concerns the meaning of foreknowledge with respect to election, particularly in Romans 8:29 – specifically, whether “whom he foreknew he predestined” indicates that God chose whom he would save based on their foreseen faith. Following a brief introduction to the question this essay will sketch out the deciding considerations: the biblical characterization of election, the ground of God’s knowledge, the meaning of “foreknow” with reference to God in Scripture, Romans 8:29 in context, and finally some considerations in Romans 8:29 itself.

Introduction​

The doctrine of election affirms that for purposes known only to himself God chose those whom he would save. He did not choose them because of anything about them but for his own “good pleasure” (Matt. 11:25-27). The Arminian doctrine of election often argues to the contrary, that God chose whom he would save based on foreseen faith – that looking ahead, God saw who would believe and on that basis chose to save them. That is, according to the Arminian doctrine, God “chose” us but only because we first chose him.

What you state makes me think that is what you hold

In the second view Corporate election

II. Election Corporate A second aspect of election is implicit in Paul's Ephesian doxology: the election to salvation is corporate as well as Christocentric. The corporate nature of election has been noted by many. In his comment on Ephesians 1:4, previously cited, Lightfoot writes, "The election of Christ involves implicitly the election of the Church."3 2 Westcott comments on Ephesians 1:4, "exelexato ] He chose us (i.e. Christians as a body v. 3) for Himself out of the world."3 3 Bloomfield comments on Ephesians sians 1:5, " ... the Apostle has here no reference to the personal election of individuals.... 1134 Lange comments on Ephesians 1:3 ... "us" should be taken in its wider meaning ... and should not be limited to the Apostle ... nor to the Jewish Christians, but applies to his people, all men, who have become or will become Christians.35 The corporate inference of Lange's words above is substantiated by his comment on Romans 8:28-30, " ... Christ is the elect in God's real kingdom in the absolute sense, so that all His followers are chosen with Him as organic members, according to their organic relations (Eph. i)."3 6 Obviously, the corporate body of the elect is comprised of individuals. But the election is primarily corporate and only secondarily particular.

I know what you believe already. Everything you've presented thus far has come from this concept of "God being outside of time". Don't conflate this with the timelessness of God.

If you're going to reference God's purpose, don't tell me it doesn't have anything to do with time.

 

[TomL]

I know what you believe already. Everything you've presented thus far has come from this concept of "God being outside of time". Don't conflate this with the timelessness of God.

If you're going to reference God's purpose, don't tell me it doesn't have anything to do with time.

I am not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. I certainly did not have time in mind when posting today.

 

[TomL]

I see a claim without evidence nor reason to establish that claim. Christ wasn't "shaped" in the womb. Jeremiah didn't preexist.

Comparing Jeremiah to Christ requires a rank of purpose. Jeremiah wasn't God's choice.

Jeremiah 1:5 (LEB) — 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Jeremiah was clearly God's choice of a prophet to the nations, and this was before he came out of the womb.

You're bringing the baggage of what you've been taught into this. You are assuming what you were taught is right. You shouldn't do this. The fact you saw a difference in the questions you first asked me tell me that you really don't know or understand this.

Like I've told you and others here, this feud that exists between Arminians and Calvinists does nothing for the Truth. It is nothing but a distraction. Most all of you here have been influenced by it.

No, I am just reading the verse.

Jeremiah 1:5 (LEB) — 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Which states God knew Jeremiah before he formed or shaped him and consecrated him, appointing him a prophet to the nations.

 

[FreeInChrist]

To begin with. The word isn't "formed". It should be "shapen". It the same context of how David talked about what many consider "inherited original sin"

YOU take it up with God. It is He who is talking here and HE is allowed to use whatever word(s) He chooses. This repeats what every single translator said the the following.
I cannot believe you would challenge what YOUR Creator said and how He said it.

New International Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

New Living Translation
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”

English Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Berean Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

King James Bible
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

New King James Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

New American Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

NASB 1995
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

NASB 1977
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Legacy Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the innermost parts I knew you, And before you came out from the womb I set you apart; I have given you as a prophet to the nations.”

Amplified Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you [and approved of you as My chosen instrument], And before you were born I consecrated you [to Myself as My own]; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

American Standard Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

English Revised Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."

International Standard Version
"I knew you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart for me before you were born; I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."

NET Bible
"Before I formed you in your mother's womb I chose you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."

New Heart English Bible
"Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Webster's Bible Translation
Before I formed thee in embryo I knew thee; and before thou wast born I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

World English Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
“Before I form you in the belly, I have known you; and before you come forth from the womb I have separated you; I have made you a prophet to the nations.”

Young's Literal Translation
'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'

Smith's Literal Translation
Before I shall form thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou shalt go forth from the womb I consecrated thee; I gave thee a prophet to the nations.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

Catholic Public Domain Version
“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And before you went forth from the womb, I sanctified you. And I made you a prophet to the nations.”

New American Bible
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.

New Revised Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came out of the womb I sanctified you and ordained you a prophet to the nations.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
“Before I would form you in the womb I knew you, and before you would go out from the womb, I hallowed you, and I have given you as the Prophet to the nations

OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, And before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee; I appointed thee a prophet to the nations.

Whatever you feel it should be it should never be questioned.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

All the others and YOU have to go to Jimmy's translation that was corrected when the Newer came out. NKJV and the ERV and
Webster's...

Funny that YOU have ignored Psalm 139:13
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.

New International Version
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

New Living Translation
For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

English Standard Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Berean Standard Bible
Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

King James Bible
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

New King James Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

New American Standard Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in guilt, And in sin my mother conceived me.

NASB 1995
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

NASB 1977
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Legacy Standard Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Amplified Bible
I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].

Christian Standard Bible
Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

American Standard Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Contemporary English Version
I have sinned and done wrong since the day I was born.

English Revised Version
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Indeed, I was born guilty. I was a sinner when my mother conceived me.

Good News Translation
I have been evil from the day I was born; from the time I was conceived, I have been sinful.

International Standard Version
Indeed, in iniquity I was brought forth; in sin my mother conceived me.

NET Bible
Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.

New Heart English Bible
Look, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

World English Bible
Behold, I was born in iniquity. My mother conceived me in sin.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
Behold, I have been brought forth in iniquity, "" And my mother conceives me in sin.

Young's Literal Translation
Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

Smith's Literal Translation
Behold, I was born in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Catholic Public Domain Version
For behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sinfulness did my mother conceive me.

New American Bible
Behold, I was born in guilt, in sin my mother conceived me.

New Revised Standard Version
Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
For behold, I was formed in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
Because in evil I was formed in the womb and in sin my mother conceived me.
OT Translations
JPS Tanakh 1917
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Before I get into to the intricate details of the mistakes being made in this teaching.

May I ask, if what you say is true, then what is the difference between how you say Jeremiah was purposed and how Christ was purposed?

I would say the difference is that Jeremiah was a prophet chosen for his role in things... Just like the Disciples were chosen and I believe pre-chosen. All that the Father has predestined. served specific roles in the OT and the NT You know, kind of like you might hire someone to do something that needs to be done?

The difference between Jeremiah or Jesus.... If you don't know, silly wabbit, I am certain any explanation I say will be fodder for your excuses, but suffice it to say... It had to be either He or the Holy Spirit who came in the flesh.

Why? Because God had/has His plan of redemption and salvation and a prophet simply does not cut it.

But make no mistake. Those of importance in things that were done in god's perfect plan were predestined. Just like the Magi. Just like the Wisemen. Just like Job, Judas and I believe even Herod.

God will not leave it up to man to mess it up. He already had that experience.

That question is essential because it creates a rank within God's choices and purpose. To me, you're treating Jeremiah with the exact same quality of purpose as Jesus Christ. Exact same.

How... If that were true, then every person that is predestined before birth also would be on equal footing. Of course I do not believe in everyone or even some lay people being predestined but
How in the world could you think a prophet, could be on equal footing with the Messiah?

Do you play chess? You then know a pawn is not a rook is not a knight is not a queen. But they all start in the same game together for different purposes.

Look at it this way... Assume for a moment that Jesus the Christ is a King in said game. All else is to enhance Him and bring to fruition why Ha came here to begin with.

Now if you can come up with a different analogy, have at it, but until then no further explanations are needed for me.

 

[praise_yeshua]

YOU take it up with God. It is He who is talking here and HE is allowed to use whatever word(s) He chooses. This repeats what every single translator said the the following.
I cannot believe you would challenge what YOUR Creator said and how He said it.

I'm not challenging anything HE said. I am challenging what you're saying. I ask that you stop calling "God" down on your side of this argument between us. God doesn't love you more than He loves me. Don't pretend otherwise. Don't pretend you have ANY access to God that I don't have myself. Don't pretend you're enlightened beyond my own enlightenment.

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations..

Funny. The DRB was translated from Latin just like the KJV was. Just like the Geneva was. Greek predates both Latin and the "Catholic" church. The word catholic simply means universal.

Translations from Aramaic

The Peshitta is a complex topic. You're really late appealing to this. Ancient Syriac texts are complicated and vastly different at times.

Whatever you feel it should be it should never be questioned.

The Brenton translation is poor at times. I follow Codex Alexandrinus. I do my own work in translation. I don't trust others. You shouldn't either.

The Greek source is πλάσσω. I let you learn that word.

I will question every translation and most manuscripts. Such isn't questioning God. It is called studying.

All the others and YOU have to go to Jimmy's translation that was corrected when the Newer came out. NKJV and the ERV and
Webster's...

I don't need any of those translations. Formed and shapen are close to one another to start with. There is a reason I mentioned the difference and you don't understand why yet.

I would say the difference is that Jeremiah was a prophet chosen for his role in things... Just like the Disciples were chosen and I believe pre-chosen. All that the Father has predestined. served specific roles in the OT and the NT You know, kind of like you might hire someone to do something that needs to be done?

Yeah. I know. You're chosen. Just come out and say it. Never meet an Arminian that didn't eventually say it or act like it. You're saying it right now.

No. Jeremiah wasn't chosen before the foundation of the world like Christ was. Poor poor example on your part. Everyone wants to pretend they're someone special. I don't. My theology doesn't support such nonsense. Jeremiah was rather unique among the prophets. The apostle Paul quoted and appealed to Jeremiah extensively. The best you will ever do is connect Jeremiah to faithful parents. God doesn't need any of us. He has plenty of others that can fill right in....

Are you needed? Will God suffer because He lacks you? I can't feel that way. Such thoughts really have nothing to do with willingness. A love born and grows out of willingness is strong. It has qualties of Divinity. It is the love of Eternal things. Not out of necessity.... Do you remember reading that phrase? "Not out of necessity"? Most people love out of necessity.

The difference between Jeremiah or Jesus.... If you don't know, silly wabbit, I am certain any explanation I say will be fodder for your excuses, but suffice it to say... It had to be either He or the Holy Spirit who came in the flesh.

Why? Because God had/has His plan of redemption and salvation and a prophet simply does not cut it.

This really isn't about Jeremiah. It never is. It is how people see themselves. People fabricate beliefs that feed how they see themselves. Salvation has become a necessity for God in both Calvinism and Arminianism. Both present a theology that requires God to include them. Whether by Calvinistic foreknowledge or necessity driven in the election and the requirements of omnipotence that fostered "God being outside of time".....

Always self serving solutions. In my theology. God really doesn't need me. He never has. Yet, I'm sure glad He chose to form Adam and Eve for this world. I'm am their child. Their descendent. Their very design lead me to know more about God. I have nothing to brag about.

But make no mistake. Those of importance in things that were done in god's perfect plan were predestined. Just like the Magi. Just like the Wisemen. Just like Job, Judas and I believe even Herod.

Yeah. I know. Get on with it. You don't know any of these people. Go ahead and say God chose you. It will be easier if you do. It will cut down on the time it takes to get to the point.

God will not leave it up to man to mess it up. He already had that experience.

I mess up just about everything I touch. Good thing God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ is Impeccable. I promote Him alone.

How... If that were true, then every person that is predestined before birth also would be on equal footing. Of course I do not believe in everyone or even some lay people being predestined but
How in the world could you think a prophet, could be on equal footing with the Messiah?

If you say that Jeremiah was preordained then you are saying that God Himself made a choice. That ranks that choice equal with God's choice in Jesus Christ. It creates a necessity in purpose for Jeremiah. Just like it does with a necessity of Jesus Christ.

Do you play chess? You then know a pawn is not a rook is not a knight is not a queen. But they all start in the same game together for different purposes.

Yeah. Fatalism.

Look at it this way... Assume for a moment that Jesus the Christ is a King in said game. All else is to enhance Him and bring to fruition why Ha came here to begin with.

Now if you can come up with a different analogy, have at it, but until then no further explanations are needed for me.

It isn't a game. You should realize that "king" isn't a heavenly distinction. King isn't Eternal. You'll find that God was never interested in being a "King". Remember the story of Samuel?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jeremiah 1:5 (LEB) — 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Jeremiah was clearly God's choice of a prophet to the nations, and this was before he came out of the womb.

Never said otherwise. Samuel was chosen because of his mother. So was Timothy.

No, I am just reading the verse.

Jeremiah 1:5 (LEB) — 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came out from the womb I consecrated you; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Which states God knew Jeremiah before he formed or shaped him and consecrated him, appointing him a prophet to the nations.

Shaped through the faith of his family.

This comparison YOU are making isn't even remotely the same comparison relative to Christ. Jeremiah, Samuel and Timothy and others were chosen because of human beings. Not God. God can use anyone.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

For someone that actually says they believe in the change that prayer brings, you're ignoring why Jeremiah and others were chosen.

No. God didn't need Jeremiah. Nor Timothy. Tell you who did. WE do. We need more of them.

Luk 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. I certainly did not have time in mind when posting today.

I'm sure you didn't. I mentioned it because it is relative. You might not know it yet, but it is. It all fits together to form the whole.

I don't how you talk about Predestination and not talk about time.

 

[TomL]

I'm sure you didn't. I mentioned it because it is relative. You might not know it yet, but it is. It all fits together to form the whole.

I don't how you talk about Predestination and not talk about time.

It's quite simple. I oppose Calvinism, which makes God the author of all that men do.