Spiritually Dead Misnomer

civic

Well-known member
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)

Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.

In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”



Below we see Jesus tell the "spiritually dead " pharisees that they refuse to come to Jesus so that they can have/receive life.

This is the complete opposite of what some religions teach. Jesus lets those dead pharisees know if they come to Jesus they can have life just as John taught in John 1:12-13 and Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:16-18. Belief in Him always precedes life. As I have mentioned before this is consistent with Jesus teachings throughout the gospels. He said no less than 13 times that- YOUR FAITH has saved you, healed, you, made you well. Not the faith that He gave them , saved them. It was THEIR OWN FAITH THAT SAVED THEM. When one placed their faith in Him they will be saved, have life, be regenerate, receive eternal life, salvation. Those conditions are taught by all the apostles and writers of the N.T.

John 5
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?



The result is our regeneration, life, salvation, eternal life, new birth, born again- all synonyms. Don't let anyone conflate them.

John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Psalm 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them His way.

Psalm 25:14
The LORD confides in those who fear Him, and reveals His covenant to them.

Acts 17:11-12
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone

so we can see from the above that salvation is for everyone and God commands everyone to repent.

Gods law is to bring one to repentance and reveal one sin.

The law reveals our sin and imperfections that brings one to humble themselves and repent . Out inability to do something God commands like be perfect does not mean we cannot admit our imperfections and inability to be perfect and to rely upon Him for our perfection and not on ones self righteousness. When one understands they cannot save themselves and relies upon God for their salvation they can and will be saved. Repenting is something we do, believing is something we do, saving is what God does. He commands everyone to repent and those who do will be saved. Salvation is for everyone and everyone can repent. God saves those who repent of their sins and believe the gospel. The teaching of Jesus and the publican demonstrates the above is true without regeneration preceding repentance and belief .



Below we read Paul is reasoning with the heathen Greeks and the unbelieving Jews as Corinth. So by using reasoning, logic and persuasion the Apostle converts many of the over the next couple of years. This is how apologetics are used to persuade unbelievers who can understand the scriptures when reasoned well by the Apologist.

Acts 18
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.

9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”

14 Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15 But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16 So he drove them off. 17 Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.


Acts 14:1
At Iconium, Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue, where they spoke so well that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.

Acts 17:2
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:19
When they reached Ephesus, Paul parted ways with Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue there and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:26
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.



Luke 15:11-32
And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

Now notice that the Son was the following :

A ) he was dead
B ) he was lost

So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.

We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son. The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son returned home, the Father did not call him home. The Father restored the son after the son repented . Calvinists conflate Gods salvation( Savior ) and mans responsibility to humble themselves and repent of their sin.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Yep.....

We know Adam did not lose his ability to understand God. Adam knew the Truth about what he was doing. He knew His guilt before he ever sinned. Consciousness that came from God the very breath of God.

A child knows both good and evil from birth. As they are exposed to external information, they start making choices. Choices just like Adam. Just like Eve. Remove these facts from the narrative (like Calvinism does) then you form a "god" that enjoys playing with his magnifying glass to "burn ants".....

I hate this depiction of God. I might dislike the excuse used to blame God with this...... "God's good pleasure".....more.

Children taught by men such as Abraham (faithful) have a inclination to be faithful. Children taught by men such as Cain, have an inclination to evil. As "peccable" creatures, we ALL sin.

Thank God the Gospel is there for us all.
 
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Yep.....

We know Adam did not lose his ability to understand God. Adam knew the Truth about what he was doing. He knew His guilt before he ever sinned. Consciousness that came from God the very breath of God.

A child knows both good and evil from birth. As they are exposed to external information, they start making choices. Choices just like Adam. Just like Eve. Remove these facts from the narrative (like Calvinism does) then you form a "god" that enjoys playing with his magnifying glass to "burn ants".....

I hate this depiction of God. I might dislike the excuse used to blame God with this...... "God's good pleasure".....

Children taught by men such as Abraham (faithful) have a inclination to be faithful. Children taught by men such as Cain, have an inclination to evil. As "peccable" creatures, we ALL sin.

Thank God the Gospel is there for us all.
Spot on my friend :)
 
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)

Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.

In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”



Below we see Jesus tell the "spiritually dead " pharisees that they refuse to come to Jesus so that they can have/receive life.

This is the complete opposite of what some religions teach. Jesus lets those dead pharisees know if they come to Jesus they can have life just as John taught in John 1:12-13 and Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:16-18. Belief in Him always precedes life. As I have mentioned before this is consistent with Jesus teachings throughout the gospels. He said no less than 13 times that- YOUR FAITH has saved you, healed, you, made you well. Not the faith that He gave them , saved them. It was THEIR OWN FAITH THAT SAVED THEM. When one placed their faith in Him they will be saved, have life, be regenerate, receive eternal life, salvation. Those conditions are taught by all the apostles and writers of the N.T.

John 5
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?



The result is our regeneration, life, salvation, eternal life, new birth, born again- all synonyms. Don't let anyone conflate them.

John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Psalm 25:9
He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them His way.

Psalm 25:14
The LORD confides in those who fear Him, and reveals His covenant to them.

Acts 17:11-12
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone

so we can see from the above that salvation is for everyone and God commands everyone to repent.

Gods law is to bring one to repentance and reveal one sin.

The law reveals our sin and imperfections that brings one to humble themselves and repent . Out inability to do something God commands like be perfect does not mean we cannot admit our imperfections and inability to be perfect and to rely upon Him for our perfection and not on ones self righteousness. When one understands they cannot save themselves and relies upon God for their salvation they can and will be saved. Repenting is something we do, believing is something we do, saving is what God does. He commands everyone to repent and those who do will be saved. Salvation is for everyone and everyone can repent. God saves those who repent of their sins and believe the gospel. The teaching of Jesus and the publican demonstrates the above is true without regeneration preceding repentance and belief .



Below we read Paul is reasoning with the heathen Greeks and the unbelieving Jews as Corinth. So by using reasoning, logic and persuasion the Apostle converts many of the over the next couple of years. This is how apologetics are used to persuade unbelievers who can understand the scriptures when reasoned well by the Apologist.

Acts 18
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

7 Then Paul left the synagogue and went next door to the house of Titius Justus, a worshiper of God. 8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his entire household believed in the Lord; and many of the Corinthians who heard Paul believed and were baptized.

9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”

14 Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15 But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16 So he drove them off. 17 Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.


Acts 14:1
At Iconium, Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue, where they spoke so well that a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.

Acts 17:2
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:19
When they reached Ephesus, Paul parted ways with Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue there and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:26
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

Matthew 16:15-17
He[Jesus]said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.



Luke 15:11-32
And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

Now notice that the Son was the following :

A ) he was dead
B ) he was lost

So we have a dead son who was lost and on his own realized that he was better off as a slave back at his Fathers house. So as one who is dead he realized his lost state and was able to make his own decision to repent and return to his Fathers house and become a servant. This is the opposite of what Calvinists teach.

We know that Salvation is of the Lord . We know that the Father was not obligated to forgive and restore the son. The son recognized his sin and repented of it and his Father forgave and restored him. The son humbled himself, God didn't, the son repented, God didn't do that for him by granting it to him, the dead son returned home, the Father did not call him home. The Father restored the son after the son repented . Calvinists conflate Gods salvation( Savior ) and mans responsibility to humble themselves and repent of their sin.

hope this helps !!!
received_236029722434665.gif
 
Romans 1 makes it clear God can be understood by an unbelieving world, the dead, the reprobates.

" since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. "

hope this helps !!!
 
Grace can give the spiritually dead power to respond, and that's always been a part of TI/TD.

Calvinism makes this false all or nothing dichotomy that grace must be irresistible or nothing.

It's always a good thing to acknowledge grace.
 
Grace can give the spiritually dead power to respond, and that's always been a part of TI/TD.

Calvinism makes this false all or nothing dichotomy that grace must be irresistible or nothing.

It's always a good thing to acknowledge grace.
Agreed that God always makes the first move, ie by His grace. God initiates the call, conviction or rejection of that call by the sinner. The sinners will comes into play to submit to God or resist submitting.
 
Agreed that God always makes the first move, ie by His grace. God initiates the call, conviction or rejection of that call by the sinner. The sinners will comes into play to submit to God or resist submitting.

The Gospel has intrinsic power. When the Gospel is preached, those words are wrapped in the Intrinsic Grace of the Words of God.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Which often ignored when a Calvinist discusses John 6.
 
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
And Cain and Able

Genesis 4:1–7 (NASB 2020) — 1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have obtained a male child with the help of the LORD.” 2 And again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a cultivator of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought an offering, from the firstborn of his flock and from their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering; 5 but for Cain and his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his face was gloomy. 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

brought God offerings. And Cain was able to communicate with God.
 
And Cain and Able

Genesis 4:1–7 (NASB 2020) — 1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have obtained a male child with the help of the LORD.” 2 And again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a cultivator of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought an offering, from the firstborn of his flock and from their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering; 5 but for Cain and his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his face was gloomy. 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

brought God offerings. And Cain was able to communicate with God.
Gods word refutes their doctrine
 
@civic,

The entire concept of “death” is that of separation; in a spiritual sense this is separation from God in a relational, communal way. It is not spatial, for God is omnipresent. Moreover, in a relational sense, he himself says that “he is not very far from any one of us” (Act 17:27) and that we can search for him and reach out for him and find him.

So many pitfalls could be avoided by interpreting things in a relational point of reference.

Great OP,

Doug
 
@civic,

The entire concept of “death” is that of separation; in a spiritual sense this is separation from God in a relational, communal way. It is not spatial, for God is omnipresent. Moreover, in a relational sense, he himself says that “he is not very far from any one of us” (Act 17:27) and that we can search for him and reach out for him and find him.

So many pitfalls could be avoided by interpreting things in a relational point of reference.

Great OP,

Doug
Thanks for the input I agree .
 
@civic,

The entire concept of “death” is that of separation; in a spiritual sense this is separation from God in a relational, communal way. It is not spatial, for God is omnipresent. Moreover, in a relational sense, he himself says that “he is not very far from any one of us” (Act 17:27) and that we can search for him and reach out for him and find him.

So many pitfalls could be avoided by interpreting things in a relational point of reference.

Great OP,

Doug
Omnipresence is a philosophical distinction. Knowledge does not require literal presence.
 
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