The Eternal Son

[DavidTree]

Yes as I have demonstrated by Jesus own teaching and the Apostles who identified Him as the Son while He was in heaven before the Incarnation and at Creation and before creation as the Creator.

I'm not reposting the scriptures since you did not address them. You just ignored them and responded with your assumptions/presuppositions.

hope this helps !!!

Why are you calling TRUTH a fallacy???

The Apostles are identifying:
a.) Genesis = In the Beginning ELOHIM = Let Us make man in Our image according to Our Likeness
b.) In the beginning was the the Word, the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim
c.) all things created by HIM, in Heaven and on earth
d.) The Word became flesh, the only begotten of the Father
e.) OT loaded with prophecies of the Savior who will be called Immanuel, Messiah, "the Son"
f.) No Son located in Heaven until the Word became flesh = Prophecy = Today, I have begotten You
g.) Elohim the Word was YHWH from OT = One Lord
h.) Elohim the Father was never heard from or seen by any man
i.) Elohim the Spirit is that which moved men of God unto Holiness = Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit says the Lord
j.) Without Elohim as THREE, no one could be saved

TRUTH = The Apostles are bringing forth, from the scriptures = Immanuel, who became the Son upon Incarnation

TRUTH = WE are not given when Elohim decided "Who will go for Us" from Eternity.

Fallacy = claiming that the Son was always the Son from Eternity??? = Where does the scripture Say that?

What you must provide is a Non-Prophetic scripture declaring the Son was always the Son from Eternity

IF and When you are able to provide that scripture, please post it = just one scripture

Example: Genesis chapter 1 = In the Beginning Elohim = John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word
If the Word was the Son from Eternity, John would of posted: "In the beginning was God and the Son was with God"

Currently, John chapter 1 declares your hypothesis as a 'fallacy'

Therefore you must find from scripture where it directly says the Son was from eternity, apart from becoming flesh.

TRUTH = At some point in Eternity Past, before Genesis, THEY decided Father/Son/Holy Spirit and then began Creation

 

[DavidTree]

Yes as I have demonstrated by Jesus own teaching and the Apostles who identified Him as the Son while He was in heaven before the Incarnation and at Creation and before creation as the Creator.

I'm not reposting the scriptures since you did not address them. You just ignored them and responded with your assumptions/presuppositions.

hope this helps !!!

I'm not reposting the scriptures since you did not address them. You just ignored them and responded with your assumptions/presuppositions.

This is a false accusation.

i looked over the scriptures you posted and in the OT they are prophecies and/or visions of what will be =Immanuel

The NT scriptures are speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ = the Word that became flesh AND became the only begotten Son of FATHER

MAJOR FALLACY and HERESY = the man Jesus was the Son of the Father from Eternity

 

[civic]

This is a false accusation.

i looked over the scriptures you posted and in the OT they are prophecies and/or visions of what will be =Immanuel

The NT scriptures are speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ = the Word that became flesh AND became the only begotten Son of FATHER

MAJOR FALLACY and HERESY = the man Jesus was the Son of the Father from Eternity

Nope none are visions or prophecies but historical and biblical facts of the past prior to the Incarnation.

 

[DavidTree]

Nope none are visions or prophecies but historical and biblical facts of the past prior to the Incarnation.

JESUS Said: "No one has seen the FATHER at any time nor heard His voice"

Daniel 7:7 - "After this I saw in the night visions,"

All OT/NT appearances of Heaven are Prophetic Visions except when the Word revealed Himself to Abraham, Moses,
Isaiah and Ezekiel

Nope none are visions or prophecies but historical and biblical facts of the past prior to the Incarnation.

@civic would respond with: "fallacy"

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is a false accusation.

i looked over the scriptures you posted and in the OT they are prophecies and/or visions of what will be =Immanuel

The NT scriptures are speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ = the Word that became flesh AND became the only begotten Son of FATHER

MAJOR FALLACY and HERESY = the man Jesus was the Son of the Father from Eternity

jesus in the OT

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

If this is not the father speaking, And it is not the HS speaking. then who is it speaking?

remember, Jesus said before abraham existed. he always existed.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

JESUS Said: "No one has seen the FATHER at any time nor heard His voice"

Daniel 7:7 - "After this I saw in the night visions,"

All OT/NT appearances of Heaven are Prophetic Visions except when the Word revealed Himself to Abraham, Moses,
Isaiah and Ezekiel


@civic would respond with: "fallacy"

yes

Yet adam walked with God. and Abraham spoke with God.

so if it was not the father. who was it?

 

[civic]

JESUS Said: "No one has seen the FATHER at any time nor heard His voice"

Daniel 7:7 - "After this I saw in the night visions,"

All OT/NT appearances of Heaven are Prophetic Visions except when the Word revealed Himself to Abraham, Moses,
Isaiah and Ezekiel


@civic would respond with: "fallacy"

Wrong again

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[DavidTree]

jesus in the OT

Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

If this is not the father speaking, And it is not the HS speaking. then who is it speaking?

remember, Jesus said before abraham existed. he always existed.

Well it is not Jesus since the Incarnation would not come about until 700 years later.

It was not the FATHER since JESUS said "no one has heard the Father's voice"

Which means it was "the Word that was Elohim/God"

Then the Word became flesh = Jesus

yes

Yet adam walked with God. and Abraham spoke with God.

so if it was not the father. who was it?

All appearances in the OT was only the Word that was Elohim/God

Today, we know the Word became flesh = the SON

The Word that was Elohim is the PERSON who came to earth in the Body prepared inside Mary's womb.

But [f]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

34Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37For with God nothing will be impossible.”

 

[DavidTree]

Wrong again

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

John 1:1-14 is BEFORE John 1:18 = no Son mentioned in this Eternal Truth

John 1:18 comes AFTER John 1:14

John 1:1-14 is the Word that was Elohim/God in the Beginning and the Word became flesh = the Son is Begotten

From John 1:14 Forward, we have the Eternal SON

SHALOM my Brother = We believe the SAME TRUTH = the Scriptures have declared it

 

[civic]

Well it is not Jesus since the Incarnation would not come about until 700 years later.

It was not the FATHER since JESUS said "no one has heard the Father's voice"

Which means it was "the Word that was Elohim/God"

Then the Word became flesh = Jesus

All appearances in the OT was only the Word that was Elohim/God

Today, we know the Word became flesh = the SON

The Word that was Elohim is the PERSON who came to earth in the Body prepared inside Mary's womb.

But [f]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

34Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37For with God nothing will be impossible.”

This is bad hermeneutics. You are taking 1 verse John 1:1 and isolating it and removing it from the entire Bible yo come up with your doctrine.

Whereas I’m doing just the opposite and using all scripture to make my argument.

The Eternal Son is also the Word, Elohim, YHWH l, God and many other names, titles , descriptions which all apply to the Son, the Second Eternal Divine Person of the Trinity/ Godhead/ Plural God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DavidTree]

This is bad hermeneutics. You are taking 1 verse John 1:1 and isolating it and removing it from the entire Bible yo come up with your doctrine.

Whereas I’m doing just the opposite and using all scripture to make my argument.

The Eternal Son is also the Word, Elohim, YHWH l, God and many other names, titles , descriptions which all apply to the Son, the Second Eternal Divine Person of the Trinity/ Godhead/ Plural God.

hope this helps !!!

The Eternal Son is also the Word, Elohim, YHWH l, God and many other names, titles , descriptions which all apply to the Son, the Second Eternal Divine Person of the Trinity/ Godhead/ Plural God.

We both AGREE to this TRUTH

The Scripture is emphasizing the Eternal Word that was Elohim in the Beginning BECAME the Eternal Son thru the Incarnation

Since HE is One Person of the Godhead, and is ETERNAL, when HE comes to earth as JESUS, JESUS is now the Eternal Son of God

Elohim determined this BEFORE the Creation = exactly when? we are not told = that only belongs to Elohim = not us

However, the Scriptures do tell us 'Why' and we had to wait for Elohim to bring it to Fulfillment.

1 Peter1:10-12
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

 

[DavidTree]

This is bad hermeneutics. You are taking 1 verse John 1:1 and isolating it and removing it from the entire Bible yo come up with your doctrine.

Whereas I’m doing just the opposite and using all scripture to make my argument.

The Eternal Son is also the Word, Elohim, YHWH l, God and many other names, titles , descriptions which all apply to the Son, the Second Eternal Divine Person of the Trinity/ Godhead/ Plural God.

hope this helps !!!

Post 469 is EXACT Hermeneutics

 

[civic]

We both AGREE to this TRUTH

The Scripture is emphasizing the Eternal Word that was Elohim in the Beginning BECAME the Eternal Son thru the Incarnation

Since HE is One Person of the Godhead, and is ETERNAL, when HE comes to earth as JESUS, JESUS is now the Eternal Son of God

Elohim determined this BEFORE the Creation = exactly when? we are not told = that only belongs to Elohim = not us

However, the Scriptures do tell us 'Why' and we had to wait for Elohim to bring it to Fulfillment.

1 Peter1:10-12
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

There never was a time when the Son was not the Son just as there never was a time when the Father was not the Father and the Holy Spirit was not the Holy Spirit.

So we do not agree. You are disagreeing with the basic, historic and biblical definition of the Eternal Trinity Who is Immutable.

 

[DavidTree]

There never was a time when the Son was not the Son just as there never was a time when the Father was not the Father and the Holy Spirit was not the Holy Spirit.

So we do not agree. You are disagreeing with the basic, historic and biblical definition of the Eternal Trinity Who is Immutable

#1 - We do AGREE = In the Beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word was God
We AGREE that the Word who was God is Eternal
The Apostles AGREE with us and so do the OT Prophets = Immanuel = God with us = PROPHECY
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There never was a time when the Son was not the Son

We are not told this from Scripture = unless you have a pre-creation declaration that is not a Prophecy

We are only told that Elohim/Plural/THREE decided before Creation to establish Themselves as FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Genesis 1:26 - Elohim said Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness.

Question #1 : Did man exist before Creation???

Question #2: What changes if the Word was not the Son from before Creation???

Question #3: Why did God the Father have a Son from eternity???

Question #4: How did God beget a Son from Eternity???

 

[civic]

Genesis 1:26 - Elohim said Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness.

Question #1 : Did man exist before Creation???

Question #2: What changes if the Word was not the Son from before Creation???

Question #3: Why did God the Father have a Son from eternity???

Question #4: How did God beget a Son from Eternity???

1- no
2- the Word is the Son before creation
3- The Eternal Father did not have a Son, the Son always existed
4- there was no begetting as in offspring. monogenes means unique , one of a kind, preeminent as I’ve provided with many Greek lexicons.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well it is not Jesus since the Incarnation would not come about until 700 years later.

It was not the FATHER since JESUS said "no one has heard the Father's voice"

Which means it was "the Word that was Elohim/God"

Or it was the second person of the godhead. The son. Who eventually became a man names jesus

Elohim is the plural form of the word God. Let us make man in our image

Then the Word became flesh = Jesus

Yes you just proved my point

All appearances in the OT was only the Word that was Elohim/God

It was the son

Or YHWH

Today, we know the Word became flesh = the SON

The Word that was Elohim is the PERSON who came to earth in the Body prepared inside Mary's womb.

Again Elohim is a plurality of God the trinity as we know it. Not one person

But [f]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

34Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37For with God nothing will be impossible.”

Not sure what your arguing here

 

[DavidTree]

1- no
2- the Word is the Son before creation
3- The Eternal Father did not have a Son, the Son always existed
4- there was no begetting as in offspring. monogenes means unique , one of a kind, preeminent as I’ve provided with many Greek lexicons.

hope this helps !!!

No Father no Son

 

[TibiasDad]

No Father no Son

I’m very late to this game, and have only read a smattering of the posts between you and @civic and think that both of you are talking past each other at times. But this said, I think @civic is correct that the scriptures he cites do reference the Son as being the Son in eternity past.

Isa says “unto us a son is given”, referring to Jesus, prior to the incarnation, so the question is ‘Whose son is given?’

The Trinity is an eternal truth, but we are blind to how the three persons related to each other. However, all being God, the eternal plan for creation and the salvation of this creation in all its aspects, would have been known to all, which would mean the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were not foreign concepts to their view of each other.


Doug

 

[DavidTree]

Or it was the second person of the godhead. The son. Who eventually became a man names jesus

Elohim is the plural form of the word God. Let us make man in our image

Yes you just proved my point

It was the son

Or YHWH

Again Elohim is a plurality of God the trinity as we know it. Not one person

Not sure what your arguing here

Or it was the second person of the godhead.

YES and until the Second Person became flesh = HE is only referred to as the WORD that was Elohim.

The son. Who eventually became a man names jesus

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten of the FATHER = thus His Son = JESUS

Where in Scripture do we see a Declaration of the Son of God BEFORE the Incarnation???

There are OT prophecies of the Coming of Immanuel and thusly the Son of the FATHER.

These prophecies speak of the Incarnation such as Psalm 2:7 - Today, I have begotten You"

Can you find in Scripture a Declaration of a PRE-EXISTING SON from Eternity???

 

[DavidTree]

I’m very late to this game, and have only read a smattering of the posts between you and @civic and think that both of you are talking past each other at times. But this said, I think @civic is correct that the scriptures he cites do reference the Son as being the Son in eternity past.

Isa says “unto us a son is given”, referring to Jesus, prior to the incarnation, so the question is ‘Whose son is given?’

The Trinity is an eternal truth, but we are blind to how the three persons related to each other. However, all being God, the eternal plan for creation and the salvation of this creation in all its aspects, would have been known to all, which would mean the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were not foreign concepts to their view of each other.


Doug

YES, @civic and i are in agreement and never questioning the Eternal Elohim Word that became flesh = JESUS

The Lord Jesus Christ is Elohim come in the flesh = Immanuel = God with us

Where we differ is that i cannot find a scripture that declares Elohim begot an Eternal Son BEFORE HE came to earth.

My Brother civic proposes that the Son was always the Son from Eternity Past, but i am unable to find that in Scripture.
This does not mean it is not there, but that i am unable to find such a Declaration.
AGAIN = the LORD Jesus Christ was never created and always Eternally Existed as Elohim = but not in the flesh

Isaiah Prophecy fulfilled = Hebrews 10:5

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.

You quoted Isaiah which is a Prophecy of 'When' the Word that was Elohim would become the only Begotten of the FATHER.

Many prophecies of CHRIST in the OT = these are prophecies of His Incarnation now fulfilled = John 1:14 , Luke chapter 1