Romans 4:5 disputes the Calvinist Ordu Salutis

[TomL]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


It is axiomatic among Calvinists that regeneration precedes faith

In our text the ungodly are justified by faith.

So faith precedes justification.

If regeneration is to precede faith, it must also precede justification.

As without faith, one is not justified.

That being the case, how can the regenerate be termed ungodly as our text speaks of.

It is while ungodly one is justified, but one regenerated cannot be termed ungodly.

Regeneration cannot therefore precede faith.

 

[TomL]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


It is axiomatic among Calvinists that regeneration precedes faith

In our text the ungodly are justified by faith.

So faith precedes justification.

If regeneration is to precede faith, it must also precede justification.

As without faith, one is not justified.

That being the case, how can the regenerate be termed ungodly as our text speaks of.

It is while ungodly one is justified, but one regenerated cannot be termed ungodly.

Regeneration cannot therefore precede faith.

Oh I forgot. Shout out to Dizerner who first pointed out possible Calvinist difficulty with Romans 4:5 and the term ungodly

 

[Rockson]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


It is axiomatic among Calvinists that regeneration precedes faith

In our text the ungodly are justified by faith.

So faith precedes justification.

If regeneration is to precede faith, it must also precede justification.

As without faith, one is not justified.

That being the case, how can the regenerate be termed ungodly as our text speaks of.

It is while ungodly one is justified, but one regenerated cannot be termed ungodly.

Regeneration cannot therefore precede faith.

No it can't. And really things like this should not even have to be a subject of discussion. The text is clear as you pointed out.

I liken it to this.....when an atheist claims God needs to prove himself. Rom 1 says because of the things of creation it should be self evident he does exist and deniers of that will be without excuse. They may claim they have one but God will say NOPE not accepting that. By putting a question mark on the most self evident things.....it can have an effect on the mind that it was a reasonable question to be asked in the first place but not really. At times people are just trying to run around the CLEAR truth. The truth is you believe first and then you're justified and then regenerated.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Amazing the lengths some people will go in order to refute Calvinism. Looks at the context. Paul is doing nothing more than explaining works vs. faith. The phrase "who justifies the ungodly" has nothing to do with the order of salvation. It's just saying God justifies the ungodly through faith, which is something we all know. It doesn't say "justifies the ungodly through faith without the need for regeneration". You've added that to the text.

 

[TomL]

Amazing the lengths some people will go in order to refute Calvinism. Looks at the context. Paul is doing nothing more than explaining works vs. faith. The phrase "who justifies the ungodly" has nothing to do with the order of salvation. It's just saying God justifies the ungodly through faith, which is something we all know. It doesn't say "justifies the ungodly through faith without the need for regeneration". You've added that to the text.

No, I did not add it to the text

I used the Calvinist presupposition regeneration precedes faith and showed how it is not consistent with the text and the idea that God justifies the ungodly.

If God justifies the ungodly through faith, then obviously faith precedes justification

And if it is while ungodly one is justified it cannot be the regenerate who cannot be stated to be ungodly

If the ungodly are to be justified the order must be

faith, Justification, regeneration

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If God justifies the ungodly through faith, then obviously faith precedes justification

But it doesn't say faith precedes regeneration. You added that.

 

[TomL]

But it doesn't say faith precedes regeneration. You added that.

Never said it did. I noted the idea that regeneration precedes faith is not consistent with the passage

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


It is axiomatic among Calvinists that regeneration precedes faith

In our text the ungodly are justified by faith.

So faith precedes justification.

If regeneration is to precede faith, it must also precede justification.

As without faith, one is not justified.

That being the case, how can the regenerate be termed ungodly as our text speaks of.

It is while ungodly one is justified, but one regenerated cannot be termed ungodly.

Regeneration cannot therefore precede faith.

I was just told by a Calvinist that being "Born again" DOESN'T MEAN you were "Saved". God figure. One thing that important to remember is that CALVINISTS have invented THEIR OWN DEFINITIONS for many commonly use religious terms, so that in any discussion, there'll be no agreement. The Calvinist answer will always be: "You don't understand. Read more of our books".

 

[civic]

I was just told by a Calvinist that being "Born again" DOESN'T MEAN you were "Saved". God figure. One thing that important to remember is that CALVINISTS have invented THEIR OWN DEFINITIONS for many commonly use religious terms, so that in any discussion, there'll be no agreement. The Calvinist answer will always be: "You don't understand. Read more of our books".

lol

 

[TomL]

I was just told by a Calvinist that being "Born again" DOESN'T MEAN you were "Saved". God figure.

Oh well, I take it that it does

I believe Christ was telling Nicodemus how one could be born again not leaving him in the dark

John 3:3–17 (KJV 1900) — 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
One could also appeal to
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

equating born again and regeneration - being made alive - quickened

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I was just told by a Calvinist that being "Born again" DOESN'T MEAN you were "Saved". God figure. One thing that important to remember is that CALVINISTS have invented THEIR OWN DEFINITIONS for many commonly use religious terms, so that in any discussion, there'll be no agreement. The Calvinist answer will always be: "You don't understand. Read more of our books".

This is one of many reasons why I don't call myself a Calvinist. However, I don't know any Calvinists/monergists who would say something like that.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This is one of many reasons why I don't call myself a Calvinist. However, I don't know any Calvinists/monergists who would say something like that.

CHuckle!!! I Do

 

[Diserner]

There's always the outliers.

Chris Date is a Calvinist who believes in annihilation and soul sleep so.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There's always the outliers.

Chris Date is a Calvinist who believes in annihilation and soul sleep so.

Which is practically a Universalist position that elevates "god" the "charge" of irrational judgment.

 

[civic]

There's always the outliers.

Chris Date is a Calvinist who believes in annihilation and soul sleep so.

sounds like a really confuse calvinist.

 

[TomL]

sounds like a really confuse calvinist.

Which is practically a Universalist position that elevates "god" the "charge" of irrational judgment.

There are Calvinist universalists

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are Calvinist universalists

I've said for years that Universalism is a natural progression for Calvinists.

 

[TomL]

I've said for years that Universalism is a natural progression for Calvinists.

Well if salvation is entirely at the discretion of God, and he really desires the salvation of all as per scripture it would seem so

Many Calvinists certainly not all will deny he really desires the salvation of all.

Others might appeal to another will of God where decrees only a certain elect to be saved

 

[Frank Russell]

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


It is axiomatic among Calvinists that regeneration precedes faith

In our text the ungodly are justified by faith.

So faith precedes justification.

If regeneration is to precede faith, it must also precede justification.

As without faith, one is not justified.

That being the case, how can the regenerate be termed ungodly as our text speaks of.

It is while ungodly one is justified, but one regenerated cannot be termed ungodly.

Regeneration cannot therefore precede faith.

Since the flesh is hostile to the things of God, and until regeneration, the flesh is all we got - it would make sense if God regenerated us beyond our knowledge so we could trust Him.

 

[TomL]

Since the flesh is hostile to the things of God, and until regeneration, the flesh is all we got - it would make sense if God regenerated us beyond our knowledge so we could trust Him.

The thing is the bible presents faith/coming to Christ/eating his flesh etc before the acquisition of life (regeneration)

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Acts 11:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.