civic
Well-known member
Ad hominem duly noted once again.
That is far from the calvinists view of T,D.
Depravity and total depravity are not the same. Huge difference.
nice try as I even agree with tertullian
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Is Total Depravity necessary to be saved ?
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
That is far from the calvinists view of T,D.
Depravity and total depravity are not the same. Huge difference.
nice try as I even agree with tertullian
civic
Well-known member
Calvin references augustine in his writings over 4,000 times. That was his mentor, guide, leader, influencer whom he closely followed in his writings/teachings/doctrines. Calvin was a disciple of augustine. No ifs ands or buts about it those are the facts.
As RC says augustine is the father of determinism. No augustine, no reformation.
hope this helps !!!
That was his mentor, guide, leader, influencer whom he closely followed in his writings/teachings/doctrines. Calvin was a disciple of augustine. No ifs ands or buts about it those are the facts.As RC says augustine is the father of determinism. No augustine, no reformation.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
BTW- you made some good comments on the Holy Spirit in that thread. Well done
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Diserner
Well-known member
Actively sinful and unclean by reason of it's birth, yet you say that's denying a sin nature.
I guess you don't care about the meaning of words very much if you can change any statement into what you want.
Then literally no set of words will ever convince you because you don't "see" what they plainly say.
( personal attack removed. )
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civic
Well-known member
Ad hominem duly noted once again.
Let me know when you can make a biblical argument from scripture instead of an emotional argument based upon a man made doctrine by Augustine not found in scripture that came from the stoics, gnostics and manicheans.
hope this helps !!!
Rowan
Active member
The way I see it Calvinism not only presents a feigned pleading and striving by God for repentance from those whom He has already doomed. In addition, it wants us to believe in some alleged “mystery” of a God of infinite mercy and love who, nevertheless, doesn’t manifest love toward everyone and therefore lets multitudes perish whom He could save. In fact, Calvin himself declared that it is to God’s glory that He fills hell with those whom He could just as well bring into heaven.
God can only forgive sinners because the penalty for sin was fully paid. And that the penalty was paid for all, making it possible for God to justly and mercifully forgive all, and not just an elect class, is declared repeatedly in Scripture—as the conscience God has given us affirms.
The Bible’s clear language shows us that God loves all, desires the salvation of all, and genuinely strives to convince wicked men to repent and to accept His offer of salvation. Then why are all not saved? Clearly, men have the capability of responding when drawn by the Holy Spirit and convicted of their guilt and need, but though all are drawn, some willingly repent and believe while others refuse. It's their choice.
Romans 3:19-31
God can only forgive sinners because the penalty for sin was fully paid. And that the penalty was paid for all, making it possible for God to justly and mercifully forgive all, and not just an elect class, is declared repeatedly in Scripture—as the conscience God has given us affirms.
The Bible’s clear language shows us that God loves all, desires the salvation of all, and genuinely strives to convince wicked men to repent and to accept His offer of salvation. Then why are all not saved? Clearly, men have the capability of responding when drawn by the Holy Spirit and convicted of their guilt and need, but though all are drawn, some willingly repent and believe while others refuse. It's their choice.
Romans 3:19-31
e v e
Well-known member
the fleshbody and its mind = sin.
atpollard
Well-known member
Total (complete, affecting every part of the person - mind, body and spirit) Depravity (the fallen inclination to “miss the mark” and reject the things of God) is a simple Biblical fact and an easily observed truth of human nature. Anyone that denies “Total Depravity”, rejects the testimony of Scripture and their own senses … making them either the “village idiot” or someone with a hidden agenda “trying to sell you something”.
[Gen 6:5-8 NKJV] 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
[Psa 51:5-7 NKJV] 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden [part] You will make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
[Jer 17:9-10 NKJV] 9 "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it? 10 I, the LORD, search the heart, test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
[Eph 2:1-3 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
[Eph 2:4-10 NKJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[Gen 6:5-8 NKJV] 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every intent of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
- Note two things, first God’s condemnation of the human heart and, second, that Noah found “grace” … unmerited favor (Noah was no exception to the Depravity that God saw).
- Per God, man is still depraved after the flood … from “youth”.
[Psa 51:5-7 NKJV] 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden [part] You will make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
- Even David acknowledges the Depravity within himself, from birth, and that any cleanness within us comes from God to us, not from us to God.
[Jer 17:9-10 NKJV] 9 "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it? 10 I, the LORD, search the heart, test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
- Jeremiah affirms that long after Noah, mankind has not changed in God’s judgement.
[Eph 2:1-3 NKJV] 1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
- Christians are not exempt … everyone starts out a son of disobedience (depraved spirit), in the lust of the flesh (depraved body) and fulfilling the desires of the mind (depraved mind). That’s total depravity … being “dead to God” in our sins.
[Eph 2:4-10 NKJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
- The answer is all about what GOD did about it, not what WE do about it … even the good works that we walk in after being made “His workmanship” are prepared beforehand BY GOD for us to walk in them!
Is Total Depravity necessary to be saved ?
Of course not. No theology is necessary to salvation...only faith in Christ as your saviour.
Did the thief on the cross understand and accept Total Depravity? Nope.
Now add in any favourite dogma that you have been taught. Still nope, right?
What dogma did the pre-Christ era folk know to save them? None, right? Yet they were saved by faith, over and over.
And the corollary is: the faith is unproven because what is proven is no more by faith, right? So who sits in the high seat of absolute certainty? We know, don't we...
Rowan
Active member
Total depravity does not mean that the image of God in man was totally lost in the fall. In several texts, Scripture still refers to man as being made “in the image of God.”
Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God He made man.
Genesis 9:6
For a man ought not to wear anything on his head [in church], for he is the image and [reflected] glory of God
1 Corinthians 11:7
9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God’s likeness!
James 3:9
It also does not mean that man has no knowledge of the person or will of God. The Scriptures teach us that all men know enough about the true God and His will to be without excuse before Him on the day of judgment. Or that man has no knowledge of the person or will of God.
Or that man has no conscience or that he is totally insensible to good and evil.
So with that in mind what is necessary to be saved is a special work of grace, that comes from during the gospel and believing it to the point of accepting Jesus as you lord and savior.
Then comes the fix for total depravity, which is the renewing of your mind.
Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God He made man.
Genesis 9:6
For a man ought not to wear anything on his head [in church], for he is the image and [reflected] glory of God
1 Corinthians 11:7
9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God’s likeness!
James 3:9
It also does not mean that man has no knowledge of the person or will of God. The Scriptures teach us that all men know enough about the true God and His will to be without excuse before Him on the day of judgment. Or that man has no knowledge of the person or will of God.
Or that man has no conscience or that he is totally insensible to good and evil.
So with that in mind what is necessary to be saved is a special work of grace, that comes from during the gospel and believing it to the point of accepting Jesus as you lord and savior.
Then comes the fix for total depravity, which is the renewing of your mind.
Rowan
Active member
Mark 6:5–6
“And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief.”
If Jesus knew all about total depravity Why would he wonder at their unbelief? It actually surprised and amazed him. This is different than what you would expect if the doctrine of Total Depravity were true. If it were true that fallen man is completely unable to believe without God giving him a unique grace to believe, then Christ would not have been surprised at all or amazed at their unbelief. He would have expected them not to believe until He Himself had decided that they should believe.
The fact that Jesus expressed surprise at the unbelief of his fellow citizens is a clear indication that Jesus did not hold to total depravity.
“And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief.”
If Jesus knew all about total depravity Why would he wonder at their unbelief? It actually surprised and amazed him. This is different than what you would expect if the doctrine of Total Depravity were true. If it were true that fallen man is completely unable to believe without God giving him a unique grace to believe, then Christ would not have been surprised at all or amazed at their unbelief. He would have expected them not to believe until He Himself had decided that they should believe.
The fact that Jesus expressed surprise at the unbelief of his fellow citizens is a clear indication that Jesus did not hold to total depravity.
charismaticlady
Active member
For myself I knew I couldn't stop sinning though I tried many times. That failure is what I confessed to Jesus to come into my life and take that desire away. That was the first prayer in 30 years that ever got answered. It was two weeks later I was filled with the Spirit and all desire to sin lifted out of me. I felt it leave!
What I want to know about Calvinists and Total Depravity is why do they claim we are still Totally Depraved after being cleansed of all unrighteousness and we must believe 1 John 1:8 is talking about a Christian. It says we are lying if we say we don't sin, but I would be lying if I said I still do!
atpollard
Well-known member
Question: Why do Calvinists claim that Christians are still "Totally Depraved" after being cleansed of all unrighteousness?
Short answer: Because we are.
Since the "short answer" will probably not be very satisfying, here is a longer answer. Start with some definitions for clarity of discussion.
- "cleanse" us from "Unrighteousness": "cleanse" (katharizō) means to make clean (literally or figuratively), and "unrighteousness" (adikia) is most commonly "a violation of some Law". Thus we are promised a "legal acquittal" from judgement for our sins. It is along the same lines as John 3:18 [“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already ..."] or Romans 8:1 ["There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus ...]. It does not say that we are SINLESS (we will never sin), it says that we will not be condemned (we are forgiven).
- "sin" and "sinless": Just a quick clarification, the word (hamartanō) is literally "to miss the mark" ... like shooting an arrow and missing the target ... and is used to figuratively describe "sin". Sin is the condition of failing to "hit the mark" of God's standards ... which happen to be perfect. Just a reminder of the "summary" of those standards: Matthew 22:37-40 [Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”] If you perfectly obey, you are "sinless" and if you fail to "hit" that mark, then you sin (miss the mark).
- "Depravity": the natural inclination of all human beings to sin ... to "miss the mark". [This is the "depravity" of the "Total Depravity" theological term.] It means "corruption" ... we are imperfect ... we are not yet perfect ... therefore, we miss the mark (both on accident and intentionally).
- "Total": As has often been explained, "Total Depravity" does not mean "utter depravity" ... we are not sociopaths. The "total" means every part of us (mind, body and spirit) was impacted by the fall and does not seek and obey God as it should (perfectly). Do your thoughts always honor God and people per the standard set in Matthew 22:37-40? If your thoughts EVER "miss the mark" then they are still "depraved" (corrupted by your human nature and not yet made PERFECT). Does your body always honor God and people per the standard set in Matthew 22:37-40? If your flesh EVER "misses the mark" then it is still "depraved" (corrupted by your human nature and not yet made PERFECT). Does your spirit always honor God and people per the standard set in Matthew 22:37-40? If your spirit EVER "misses the mark" of perfect unity with God, then it is still "depraved" (corrupted by your human nature and not yet made PERFECT).
- You live a life of sinless perfection. (Either we Calvinists have misunderstood the verses that appear to state that is impossible prior to glorification, or you are lying to yourself).
- You "miss the mark" in thought, body and/or spirit from time to time ... like the rest of humanity ... and we are all still struggling against our "Total Depravity" [but we are no longer SLAVES to it.]
charismaticlady
Active member
Thank you so much for providing this answer to a question I've had for many many years, ever since I first heard about TULIP and was shocked to pieces.