Revelation Bible Study Lessons
- Thread starter Kenny
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dwight92070
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Although Christians are most familiar with the first coming of Christ, it is the second coming that gets the most ink in the Bible. References to the second coming outnumber references to the first by a factor of eight to one. Scholars count 1,845 biblical references to the second coming, including 318 in the New Testament. Christ’s return is emphasized in no less than seventeen Old Testament books and seven out of every ten chapters in the New Testament. The Lord Himself referred to His return twenty-one times. The second coming is second only to faith as the most dominant subject in the New Testament.
Revelation | Verse By Verse Ministry International
Dive into the mysteries of Revelation with our in-depth study, connecting all 66 books of the Bible. Experience a unique approach to understanding prophecy by exploring the entire Scripture narrative.versebyverseministry.org
That is shockingly unbelievable. So according to you there are 1527 (1845-318) Old Testament references to the 2nd Coming. What is your source for saying that, other than the general term "scholars"? Can you name the scholars and the source of them saying that? Could you give me a list of just 20 Old Testament references to the 2nd coming? Or even 10?
dwight92070
Well-known member
Could you give me just ten places where the Old Testament says that? Or even five places?
e v e
Well-known member
I think you can find them just fine.
I'm no longer doing that job... having retired in 2018 from college.
dwight92070
Well-known member
I don't think I can find them, because I don't believe they exist. I don't see ONE such reference. If the scholars Kenny refers to are mistaken, and I believe they are, then this may be why many Christians don't really get into Revelation - Because the misinformation being put out is so voluminous and contradictory, that many are totally confused.
I believe many of the prophecies in the Old Testament that seem to be referring to the 2nd Coming, are actually referring to Christ's first coming.
Peter seems to confirm this in 1 Peter 1:10-12.
If you read those verses, Peter tells us that the Spirit of Christ within the prophets was predicting the "sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow". Christ ultimate suffering was on the cross and His resurrection brought many glories to follow - the glories of His resurrection and men becoming new creations in Christ, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, and the glories of Jesus having been given all authority in heaven and on earth.
To both Kenny and Eve, it's really not good to make sweeping statements about the Bible, if you can't back them up with scripture. It's better to not say anything about the Bible, if you can't confirm what you say from the Bible.
I believe many of the prophecies in the Old Testament that seem to be referring to the 2nd Coming, are actually referring to Christ's first coming.
Peter seems to confirm this in 1 Peter 1:10-12.
If you read those verses, Peter tells us that the Spirit of Christ within the prophets was predicting the "sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow". Christ ultimate suffering was on the cross and His resurrection brought many glories to follow - the glories of His resurrection and men becoming new creations in Christ, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, and the glories of Jesus having been given all authority in heaven and on earth.
To both Kenny and Eve, it's really not good to make sweeping statements about the Bible, if you can't back them up with scripture. It's better to not say anything about the Bible, if you can't confirm what you say from the Bible.
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dwight92070
Well-known member
There is no record in the Bible of Enoch or Elijah dying. Of Enoch it says, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death ..."
When the author of Hebrews 11:13 says "All these died in faith, ..." he is only referring the men mentioned in verses 4-12, which starts with Abel and ends with Abraham and Sarah, so Elijah is not in those verses. Also, it is understood that Enoch was an exception, since the author plainly says "that he would not see death."
Also, Elijah was taken up to God in chariots of fire - he also never died.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Kenny, I see now where you got your information in your opening post - from David Jeremiah. At least he uses the same numbers that you quoted. I'm not surprised. Even David Jeremiah did not tell us who these "scholars" were, who claimed that there are 1845 Biblical references to the 2nd coming. David Jeremiah is a "devoted" Dispensationalist. The people of this doctrine are known to see the 2nd coming in many prophecies from the Old Testament, which almost always refer to the 1st coming.
Dispensationalism has caused so much division and confusion in the church, ever since John Nelson Darby had, in his opinion, recovered the views taught in the early church, and yet the church lost sight of those views until 1830 years later, when he "rediscovered" them. (Biography of John Nelson Darby by Max S. Weremchuk - Page 39, second paragraph.) The truth is that the early church never held the system of views that Darby did. Rather it appears that he made up a lot of his doctrine.
Dispensationalism is a large system of unBiblical doctrines, which should be avoided.
Dispensationalism has caused so much division and confusion in the church, ever since John Nelson Darby had, in his opinion, recovered the views taught in the early church, and yet the church lost sight of those views until 1830 years later, when he "rediscovered" them. (Biography of John Nelson Darby by Max S. Weremchuk - Page 39, second paragraph.) The truth is that the early church never held the system of views that Darby did. Rather it appears that he made up a lot of his doctrine.
Dispensationalism is a large system of unBiblical doctrines, which should be avoided.
101G
Well-known member
Read Hebrews again, or for the first time.
see death? where? this is why he was MOVED/translated from one place to another. if Enoch did not die at all, then he would be the first fruit with a none dying body and not the Lord Jesus. and there is no record of his body being quicken. ... meaning given a new body. for flesh and blood cannot enter to heaven. and as said, if he was changed then the bible LIED of the Lord Jesus having the FIRST NEW BODY..... listen, 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," as said if Enoch was change, then the Lord Jesus is not the First fruit, for... Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" and if Enoch has a new body, please post book chapter and verse to this effect.
now the order is clear, 1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." now if Enoch did not die, those alive will be change, and the oldest man was Methuselah which according to you is now not. so when the Lord returns then Enoch have to be change? because no flesh with blood live that long.
101G
dwight92070
Well-known member
Instead of just accepting what the scripture says about Enoch and Elijah, or rather what it doesn't say, i.e. that they died - you are speculating about what "really" happened to them, which can easily lead into error. Again, there is no record that either of them died. You can make guesses all you want, but we can't base our doctrine on guesses.
Complete
Well-known member
The Link (above) takes you to a book by E.W. Bullinger entitled, 'The Apocalypse'. It is a commentary on the book of Revelation, and one that I have found very informative.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
101G
Well-known member
no, LEARN what Words means so one can get the full understanding of what's being said. see Faith without KNOWLEDGE is dead. .... LEARN.
now hebrews states he was "transported".
G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v.
1. to transfer.
2. (literally) to transport.
3. (by implication) to exchange.
4. (reflexively) to change sides.
5. (figuratively) to pervert.
[from G3326 and G5087]
KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn
Root(s): G3326, G5087
101G.
101G
Well-known member
dwight92070
Well-known member
It's really amazing that David Jeremiah speaks of (and agrees with) scholars who claim there are 1845 Biblical references to the Second Coming of Christ in the Old Testament. Yet he only cites TWO! In fact, one of the two is not even found in the Old Testament - Jude 14-15 And he mistakenly thinks that his 2nd reference, Daniel 7:13-14, refers to the 2nd Coming, but it does not:
"I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom."
Actually, this refers to His ascension INTO heaven after His resurrection - to appear before the Ancient of Days (God, the Father). This is not a reference to His 2nd Coming.
Nor is Jude 14-15 referring to the 2nd Coming. Jude says that Enoch prophesied judgment on ALL. Enoch's son was Methuselah, who died the same year that the flood began. We don't know if he died of natural causes, or if he drowned in the flood. Enoch's prophecy seems to be pointing to the flood, which was a judgment on ALL.
Kenny
Member
You have to trust me.
Kenny
Member
Dr David Jeremiah is the best.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Unfortunately, he can't back up his claims about how many times the 2nd coming is referred to in the Old Testament. I don't see how that makes him "the best". I guess if you think Dispensationalism is "the best", then anyone who follows it, must be the best too. Then you jump on his band wagon, as if he is speaking the gospel truth, but it appears just the opposite. As is always the case, the doctrine of Dispensationalism brings forth bad fruit. If there are 1845 references to the 2nd Coming in the Bible, according to scholars, is asking for a list of 10 or 20 from the Old Testament too much to ask? Apparently someone actually counted them, so they must have a complete list somewhere. If they can't produce that, then why should we or anyone believe them? If they can't produce such a list, they should never have made such a false claim, and nobody should follow them.
dwight92070
Well-known member
To Kenny - Crickets? No list coming? Not even 10 verses? If there 1527 Old Testament references to the 2nd Coming, as you stated in your opening post, then just give us 10 please. How about 5? Not even 1?
I think it's obvious that this is a FALSE claim, since they can't produce ANY such references.
I even called David Jeremiah's organization and asked them to give me a list or tell me where I can find these references. The receptionist said that she would try to get that information for me and get back with me.
I think it's obvious that this is a FALSE claim, since they can't produce ANY such references.
I even called David Jeremiah's organization and asked them to give me a list or tell me where I can find these references. The receptionist said that she would try to get that information for me and get back with me.
dwight92070
Well-known member
No I don't. The fact that you can't produce ANY verses that back up your claim, means that I trust you even less.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1
I don't know you from Adam. And I'm supposed to trust you? Nor do I know David Jeremiah. I've only heard him briefly on the radio. So I don't trust him either.
However, if you would admit that this number (1845) is a lie, I would at least have respect for you.
