Rapture Ready

[SteveB]

Good Night @Believer @Cosmo @SteveB

Thank you.
I hope you had a great night too.
My wife and I went out for dinner with some fellow Jesus people to celebrate her birthday.
It was indeed a great night.

 

[SteveB]

Nothing was added and nothing was removed

So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

8And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ [d]Therefore do not [e]go after them. 9But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will [f]answer; 15for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19By your patience possess your souls.

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

At this point, verse 28, the Lord Jesus Christ STOPS and begins anew with a parable in verse 29

Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

At this point, verse 33, the Lord ENDS His parable just as HE ended His dissertation of His 2nd Coming in verse 28

Now beginning in verse 34 JESUS focuses on daily temptations that can dissuade us from following Him to the end of our life

But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

JESUS separates and articulates the daily temptations that are able to cause us to fall away from the Faith
Your life and mine is very short and this is the focus of verses 34-36


Nothing was added and nothing was removed

Actually, you removed several quotes I'd included.

And considering they were both old and new testament passages, I now find myself wondering...

What do you think about the old testament with regards to biblical Christianity?

Do you think that the church of Jesus Christ has replaced Israel in the economy of God?

 

[DavidTree]

Actually, you removed several quotes I'd included.

And considering they were both old and new testament passages, I now find myself wondering...

What do you think about the old testament with regards to biblical Christianity?

Do you think that the church of Jesus Christ has replaced Israel in the economy of God?

i posted the entire sequence of His Coming in Luke chapter 21 which is what we are called to believe and obey

What do you think about the old testament with regards to biblical Christianity?

The OT scriptures are clearly evident of the Truth that leads a Jew and Gentile to the Savior = the LORD Jesus Christ

Do you think that the church of Jesus Christ has replaced Israel in the economy of God?

Israel on earth is a nation and the Gospel was first preached to them but they fell away from their God.

The 'Church' is the Body of Christ, Jew & Gentile in MESSIAH, as such they are the Household of God and the Temple of the God

Concerning the Jewish nation whom God foreknew, the LORD says this: Matthew 23:37-39

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say,
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
The Holy Spirit says this:
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

 

[SteveB]

i posted the entire sequence of His Coming in Luke chapter 21 which is what we are called to believe and obey

So you added your own opinions, instead of focusing.

The OT scriptures are clearly evident of the Truth that leads a Jew and Gentile to the Savior = the LORD Jesus Christ

Curious how that works.
So how does that tie into the difference between the harpadzo where we meet Jesus in the air, and the second coming, when Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives.

Israel on earth is a nation and the Gospel was first preached to them but they fell away from their God.

So is Israel still part of God's plan?

The 'Church' is the Body of Christ, Jew & Gentile in MESSIAH, as such they are the Household of God and the Temple of the God

you didn’t actually answer my question.
does the church replace Israel in the economy and plan of God?
Romans 11 makes it clear that the church is the grafted wild olive branch.
Israel, the natural olive branch, though cut out, can readily be re-engrafted.

Concerning the Jewish nation whom God foreknew, the LORD says this: Matthew 23:37-39

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say,
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
The Holy Spirit says this:
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

So, is Israel still part of God's plan?

 

[DavidTree]

So you added your own opinions, instead of focusing.


Curious how that works.
So how does that tie into the difference between the harpadzo where we meet Jesus in the air, and the second coming, when Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives.

So is Israel still part of God's plan?


you didn’t actually answer my question.
does the church replace Israel in the economy and plan of God?
Romans 11 makes it clear that the church is the grafted wild olive branch.
Israel, the natural olive branch, though cut out, can readily be re-engrafted.


So, is Israel still part of God's plan?

All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire = true or false?

 

[SteveB]

All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire = true or false?

Gee, when you change the topic you run really far afield.
Ok. Have it your way.
You just demonstrated yourself an unreliable individual from whom to learn more.

 

[DavidTree]

Gee, when you change the topic you run really far afield.
Ok. Have it your way.
You just demonstrated yourself an unreliable individual from whom to learn more.

There is One we fully rely on = His WORD

If you believe His Word then you will SEE that HE never said, I will pre-trib rapture My Church.

Since JESUS never prophecied of a pre-trib rapture, should you be speaking of that which God never said!!!

Since the Apostles never wrote of a pre-trib rapture, should you be speaking of that which the Holy Spirit never said!!!

Factually, the OT prophets, the LORD Jesus and His Apostles only spoke of enduring thru tribulations, sufferings and even persecutions.

Shalom

 

[SteveB]

There is One we fully rely on = His WORD

Yep. Pity you've chosen to refuse to actually provide a coherent answer.
I'm not here to win arguments.
I simply wanted an answer to my question.

If you believe His Word then you will SEE that HE never said, I will pre-trib rapture My Church.

You're more than welcome to continue your arguments.

neither does he say- I'll post/mid-trib harpadzo my church.
so, you've chosen the wrong dog to walk.

my question was really simple.
is Israel part of God's plan or not?

Since JESUS never prophecied of a pre-trib rapture, should you be speaking of that which God never said!!!

actually, Jesus said that nobody knows the day ot hour. Not even the angels. Only the Father!
So what.... exactly.... made you think you can know when it is?

Since the Apostles never wrote of a pre-trib rapture, should you be speaking of that which the Holy Spirit never said!!!

Actually, they, and Isaiah did.
But... I understand, you're desperately trying to make sure you spend the worst time in human history with the rest of the unbelievers.

Factually, the OT prophets, the LORD Jesus and His Apostles only spoke of enduring thru tribulations, sufferings and even persecutions.

pity you refused to pay attention to what I asked you previously....

Shalom

Au revoir.

 

[DavidTree]

Yep. Pity you've chosen to refuse to actually provide a coherent answer.
I'm not here to win arguments.
I simply wanted an answer to my question.

You're more than welcome to continue your arguments.

neither does he say- I'll post/mid-trib harpadzo my church.
so, you've chosen the wrong dog to walk.

my question was really simple.
is Israel part of God's plan or not?




actually, Jesus said that nobody knows the day ot hour. Not even the angels. Only the Father!
So what.... exactly.... made you think you can know when it is?


Actually, they, and Isaiah did.
But... I understand, you're desperately trying to make sure you spend the worst time in human history with the rest of the unbelievers.


pity you refused to pay attention to what I asked you previously....


Au revoir.

i got a good laugh from your response - thank you

 

[SteveB]

i got a good laugh from your response - thank you

Further demonstrating your unwillingness to simply answer the questions.

 

[DavidTree]

Further demonstrating your unwillingness to simply answer the questions.

Your questions were answered by the Word of God, ie the Holy Scriptures

Take up your argument with the LORD who TOLD you that HE is Coming AFTER the Tribulation of those days = Matthew ch24

You are exemplifying your unwillingness to believe His words of Truth

 

[SteveB]

Your questions were answered by the Word of God, ie the Holy Scriptures

Oh, I have answers from scripture.

Jer 31:35-37 WEB 35 Yahweh, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that its waves roar— Yahweh of Armies is his name, says: 36 “If these ordinances depart from before me,” says Yahweh, “then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before me forever.” 37 Yahweh says: “If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done,” says Yahweh.

Israel is part of the plan of YHVH.
I.e., the church will never replace Israel.
Even Paul states that in Romans 11.

The problem here isn't that scripture doesn’t answer my questions.

the problem is that you don't actually know what you're talking about, and instead, run around in circles saying things you don't actually understand.

Take up your argument with the LORD who TOLD you that HE is Coming AFTER the Tribulation of those days = Matthew ch24

You are exemplifying your unwillingness to believe His words of Truth

You mean like the following?

Rom 11:1-36 WEB 1 I ask then, did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God didn’t reject his people, whom he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets. They have broken down your altars. I am left alone, and they seek my life.” 4 But how does God answer him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so too at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn’t obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened. 8 According as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” 9 David says, “Let their table be made a snare, a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Always keep their backs bent.” 11 I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an apostle to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 15 For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what would their acceptance be, but life from the dead? 16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree, 18 don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 This is my covenant with them, when I will take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 33 Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to him, and it will be repaid to him again?” 36 For of him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory for ever! Amen.

 

[DavidTree]

Oh, I have answers from scripture.

Jer 31:35-37 WEB 35 Yahweh, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that its waves roar— Yahweh of Armies is his name, says: 36 “If these ordinances depart from before me,” says Yahweh, “then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before me forever.” 37 Yahweh says: “If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done,” says Yahweh.

Israel is part of the plan of YHVH.
I.e., the church will never replace Israel.
Even Paul states that in Romans 11.

The problem here isn't that scripture doesn’t answer my questions.

the problem is that you don't actually know what you're talking about, and instead, run around in circles saying things you don't actually understand.



You mean like the following?

Rom 11:1-36 WEB 1 I ask then, did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God didn’t reject his people, whom he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets. They have broken down your altars. I am left alone, and they seek my life.” 4 But how does God answer him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so too at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn’t obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened. 8 According as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” 9 David says, “Let their table be made a snare, a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Always keep their backs bent.” 11 I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an apostle to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 15 For if the rejection of them is the reconciling of the world, what would their acceptance be, but life from the dead? 16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree, 18 don’t boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I don’t desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won’t be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 This is my covenant with them, when I will take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 33 Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to him, and it will be repaid to him again?” 36 For of him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory for ever! Amen.

In Post 243
the LORD clearly states the redemption of the earthbound nation Israel but only at His Coming
the Holy Spirit speaking thru the apostle Paul clearly states the redemption of the earthbound nation Israel but only at His Coming

You can move on to Higher Ground now concerning the Rapture

 

[SteveB]

In Post 243
the LORD clearly states the redemption of the earthbound nation Israel but only at His Coming
the Holy Spirit speaking thru the apostle Paul clearly states the redemption of the earthbound nation Israel but only at His Coming

You can move on to Higher Ground now concerning the Rapture

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

I'd say that this is the highest possible ground to be kneeling on.

Paul picked highest ground too.

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So I'm thinking that I'm on the best possible ground.

 

[DavidTree]

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

I'd say that this is the highest possible ground to be kneeling on.

Paul picked highest ground too.

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So I'm thinking that I'm on the best possible ground.

not with pre-trib rapture

Neither is it spoken of in those Scriptures of TRUTH

But you will find His Coming with the Saints, the Resurrection and afterwards the Rapture

1 Thess 4:13-18 completely REJECTS the error of pre-trib rapture

Please read slowly, carefully, with prayer and patience 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

And remember, as long as we remain in CHRIST, HE will never leave us nor forsake us = Hebrews 13: 1-6

SHALOM my Brother in CHRIST

 

[SteveB]

not with pre-trib rapture

I have a novel idea.
You wait for the second coming.
Those of us who are preparing for Jesus to come as a thief will continue to pray always that we'll be accounted worthy to escape all the things coming on the earth.

Neither is it spoken of in those Scriptures of TRUTH

Which are? The WTS/JW/NWT?

But you will find His Coming with the Saints, the Resurrection and afterwards the Rapture

So, in your beliefs, the rapture happens AFTER Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives?
Do you have any verses to back that up?
Because Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 4,

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, once Jesus lands on earth, does he ascend again to pick up his followers who died, and who are still alive?

1 Thess 4:13-18 completely REJECTS the error of pre-trib rapture

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Ok. Where does it reject the harpadzo?

Please read slowly, carefully, with prayer and patience 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

I have been. Along with the rest of the Bible, repeatedly, several times, over the course of the past 47+ years.
So what exactly are you saying I'm supposed to be seeing?

And remember, as long as we remain in CHRIST, HE will never leave us nor forsake us = Hebrews 13: 1-6

Exactly.
Which is exactly why I'm so interested in Luke 21:34-36.

SHALOM my Brother in CHRIST

L'hitraot.

 

[DavidTree]

I have a novel idea.
You wait for the second coming.
Those of us who are preparing for Jesus to come as a thief will continue to pray always that we'll be accounted worthy to escape all the things coming on the earth.

Which are? The WTS/JW/NWT?



So, in your beliefs, the rapture happens AFTER Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives?
Do you have any verses to back that up?
Because Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 4,

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, once Jesus lands on earth, does he ascend again to pick up his followers who died, and who are still alive?


1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Ok. Where does it reject the harpadzo?



I have been. Along with the rest of the Bible, repeatedly, several times, over the course of the past 47+ years.
So what exactly are you saying I'm supposed to be seeing?



Exactly.
Which is exactly why I'm so interested in Luke 21:34-36.

L'hitraot.

Ok. Where does it reject the harpadzo?

1st Thessalonians rejects "pre trib" = loud and clear

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet.
The dead in Christ will rise first,

17 after that we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[SteveB]

1st Thessalonians rejects "pre trib" = loud and clear

1Th 4:13-18 WEB 13 But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with God’s trumpet.
The dead in Christ will rise first,

17 after that we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Not seeing anything about the timing of the harpadzo in this passage.

I see several things...
1- those who died, believing in Jesus will be raised first.
2- after the dead in Christ have been raised, those who are alive, believing in Jesus will be harpadzo-d, (aka raptured) next.
3- we will meet Jesus IN THE AIR....
4- we will ever be with Jesus.

I don't see anything that describes pre, post, mid.
Nothing!

Read this and tell me what you see.

Gen 18:23-33 WEB 23 Abraham came near, and said, “Will you consume the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous within the city? Will you consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 May it be far from you to do things like that, to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be like the wicked. May that be far from you. Shouldn’t the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 Yahweh said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered, “See now, I have taken it on myself to speak to the Lord, although I am dust and ashes. 28 What if there will lack five of the fifty righteous? Will you destroy all the city for lack of five?” He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to him yet again, and said, “What if there are forty found there?” He said, “I will not do it for the forty’s sake.” 30 He said, “Oh don’t let the Lord be angry, and I will speak. What if there are thirty found there?” He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “See now, I have taken it on myself to speak to the Lord. What if there are twenty found there?” He said, “I will not destroy it for the twenty’s sake.” 32 He said, “Oh don’t let the Lord be angry, and I will speak just once more. What if ten are found there?” He said, “I will not destroy it for the ten’s sake.” 33 Yahweh went his way as soon as he had finished communing with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.


Does God judge the righteous with the wicked?

Then,

Isa 26:19-21 WEB 19 Your dead shall live. Their dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth will cast out the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms, and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself for a little moment, until the indignation is past. 21 For, behold, Yahweh comes out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth also will disclose her blood, and will no longer cover her slain.

Does God differentiate between his people and the ungodly?

What did Peter say about it?

2Pe 2:6-9 WEB 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live in an ungodly way, 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

Was Lot judged with the ungodly?
Did God remove Lot from the cities before judgment occurred?

What does Paul tell us regarding the wrath of God on followers of Jesus?

1Th 5:9-10 WEB 9 For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[DavidTree]

Not seeing anything about the timing of the harpadzo in this passage.

I see several things...
1- those who died, believing in Jesus will be raised first.
2- after the dead in Christ have been raised, those who are alive, believing in Jesus will be harpadzo-d, (aka raptured) next.
3- we will meet Jesus IN THE AIR....
4- we will ever be with Jesus.

I don't see anything that describes pre, post, mid.
Nothing!

The expected Timing is very clear and concise

1- Christ descends from Heaven = Daniel ch2, Zechariah ch14, Matthew ch24 , 1 Corinthians ch15 , 1st & 2nd Thessalonians
2 - the Resurrection of the Just = GOSPEL , Matthew ch24 , Luke ch21 , Daniel chapter 12
3 - afterwards those remaining are Raptured

 

[Bob Carabbio]

According to my online dictionary, the word rapture means “an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion” and “being carried away by overwhelming emotion.”

I don't get my "Truth" from a "dictionary".

And "Rapture" is a "Theological" term that doesn't occur Biblically.

However in 1 Thess 4:17 the Bible speaks of a "Catching away". As usual in "man's theology" there's controversy. But, of course "Man's theology" doesn't have any effect on God's plan.

My personal belief is that there will be a MASS PHYSICAL DEATH of Born again Christians, who will be transformed and glorified BEFORE the end of the age. and the full ferocity of the "tribulation", when God's WRATH is poured out on those who reject Him.

I don't personally expect to witness that in the flesh, since I'm 82, and in lousy health.

Of course the "Eschatological Theologians" will continue to spin their tales about the "End times", BUT HEY!!! I have a book at home that "PROVES BIBLICALLY" that the "Rapture" WILL OCCUR during the "Feast of Trumpets" in 1988. Gives 88 proofs in fact!!!. I can hardly wait!!!