PSA as central to the Gospel

civic said:
Some make void the word of God by their traditions. The traditions of fallen men who teach error.

God did not punish His Son, Evil and wicked men punished Him, tortured Him, persecuted Him and finally killed Him.

hope this helps !!!
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Yep. He laid down His life to man. Stephen called them "murderers".

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
 
@civic @praise_yeshua @Jay @ David @Joe
I have said this:
Red Baker said:
While it is true wicked hands put Christ to death, yet God used those wicked men to perfectly carry out what had to be done in order for his elect to be saved from their sins, the Just had to die for the unjust, in order for them to have the righteousness of God, which gives a person a right to eternal life, there was no other way, for if it were, then God would have taken the most righteous way to redeem his people from their sins. Let us consider a few scriptures:

Galatians 3:13​

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I'm stepping out for a while but want to come back and address these scriptures:
John 11:49-53~"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death."
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If any of you disagree then start with my posit @ #41-43 and prove me wrong, and others that follow #43, etc.

Again we fully understand and agree that wicked men put Christ to death, and as I said, God's infinite foreknowledge knew every details, of their hatred for the truth and every thoughts thereof before they ever had those thoughts. and used them to perfectly carry out His eternal purposes in order for Christ to secures eternal life for God's elect. You folks only have half of the truth, the main part of christ's mission you reject, thereby reject the truth of Christ Gospel.

So I ask each one of you the following questions: 1) "Was it "expedient" for God's people that Christ died as an offering to God for our sins?" 2) "Who made Christ a curse for us according to Galatians 3:13?" 3) Who made Christ sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God according to 2nd Corinthians 5:21? 4) Was our sins imputed to Christ and his righteousness imputed to us? If yes, on what grounds? 5) Was Christ a private person or acting as federal head of his people? Please explain in a few words. 6) Lastly, but by no means the least, did it please Jehovah God to bruise his Son? per Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53:10​

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

I could ask so many more question but these are enough for now. Isaiah the prophet is not on your side, not even close, this should concern all of you. God gave his only begotten Son, knowing that there was no other ways to bring salvation to fallen humanity except through God making his Son an offering for our sins. Jesus Christ truly was the LAMB OF GOD to be sacrificed for the sins of his people.

John 1:29​

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
 
Red Baker said:
@civic @praise_yeshua @Jay @ David @Joe
I have said this:

I'm stepping out for a while but want to come back and address these scriptures:

If any of you disagree then start with my posit @ #41-43 and prove me wrong, and others that follow #43, etc.

Again we fully understand and agree that wicked men put Christ to death, and as I said, God's infinite foreknowledge knew every details, of their hatred for the truth and every thoughts thereof before they ever had those thoughts. and used them to perfectly carry out His eternal purposes in order for Christ to secures eternal life for God's elect. You folks only have half of the truth, the main part of christ's mission you reject, thereby reject the truth of Christ Gospel.

So I ask each one of you the following questions: 1) "Was it "expedient" for God's people that Christ died as an offering to God for our sins?" 2) "Who made Christ a curse for us according to Galatians 3:13?" 3) Who made Christ sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God according to 2nd Corinthians 5:21? 4) Was our sins imputed to Christ and his righteousness imputed to us? If yes, on what grounds? 5) Was Christ a private person or acting as federal head of his people? Please explain in a few words. 6) Lastly, but by no means the least, did it please Jehovah God to bruise his Son? per Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53:10​

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

I could ask so many more question but these are enough for now. Isaiah the prophet is not on your side, not even close, this should concern all of you. God gave his only begotten Son, knowing that there was no other ways to bring salvation to fallen humanity except through God making his Son an offering for our sins. Jesus Christ truly was the LAMB OF GOD to be sacrificed for the sins of his people.

John 1:29​

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
Click to expand...
Jesus and the Apostles are not on your side not even close. All you have is one misunderstood passage in Isaiah that is not once quoted in the NT.

So your doctrine is built upon sinking sand and is absent in the NT.

PSA is unbiblical

The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God.

The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)

2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)

6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)

8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)
 
praise_yeshua said:
What are you guilty of? "Penal" requires guilt. So make this real. What are you guilty of?

Just FYI. The English word "Penal" comes from French......

Oh what a terrible origin that basically has "zero" origins in any biblical language.
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We, my brother!
We have committed sin, are guilty and therefore we suffer death.

Our only hope is in the shed Blood of Christ who suffered on our behalf(punishment) unto death on the Cross.

Christ redeems our soul unto Eternal Life when we are received by the FATHER thru His Son.
Our physical body remains under the punishment of death but will be transformed at His Second Coming.
Direct language from the LORD in both the OT and also in the NT

@Jay made a very serious error in his post #57

Here is the correction that @Jay needs, to return to TRUTH = Hebrews 9:22

According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood,
and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

SHALOM in TRUTH = "Thy Word is TRUTH"
 
Last edited:
Red Baker said:
@civic @praise_yeshua @Jay @ David @Joe
I have said this:

I'm stepping out for a while but want to come back and address these scriptures:

If any of you disagree then start with my posit @ #41-43 and prove me wrong, and others that follow #43, etc.

Again we fully understand and agree that wicked men put Christ to death, and as I said, God's infinite foreknowledge knew every details, of their hatred for the truth and every thoughts thereof before they ever had those thoughts. and used them to perfectly carry out His eternal purposes in order for Christ to secures eternal life for God's elect. You folks only have half of the truth, the main part of christ's mission you reject, thereby reject the truth of Christ Gospel.

So I ask each one of you the following questions: 1) "Was it "expedient" for God's people that Christ died as an offering to God for our sins?" 2) "Who made Christ a curse for us according to Galatians 3:13?" 3) Who made Christ sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God according to 2nd Corinthians 5:21? 4) Was our sins imputed to Christ and his righteousness imputed to us? If yes, on what grounds? 5) Was Christ a private person or acting as federal head of his people? Please explain in a few words. 6) Lastly, but by no means the least, did it please Jehovah God to bruise his Son? per Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53:10​

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

I could ask so many more question but these are enough for now. Isaiah the prophet is not on your side, not even close, this should concern all of you. God gave his only begotten Son, knowing that there was no other ways to bring salvation to fallen humanity except through God making his Son an offering for our sins. Jesus Christ truly was the LAMB OF GOD to be sacrificed for the sins of his people.

John 1:29​

“The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
Click to expand...
i am assuming @David is myself ???
 
civic said:
Jesus and the Apostles are not on your side not even close. All you have is one misunderstood passage in Isaiah that is not once quoted in the NT.

So your doctrine is built upon sinking sand and is absent in the NT.

PSA is unbiblical

The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God.

The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)

2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)

4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)

6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)

7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)

8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Isaiah 53 in the most reliable witness is found in Codex Alexandrinus. How would a practical KJVOist know this? @RedBaker
 
DavidTree said:
We, my brother!
We have committed sin, are guilty and therefore we suffer death.
Click to expand...

That isn't good enough. What sin did you commit worthy of death? Not all sin is worthy of death.

DavidTree said:
Our only hope is in the shed Blood of Christ who suffered on our behalf(punishment) unto death on the Cross.

Christ redeems our soul unto Eternal Life when we are received by the FATHER thru His Son.
Our physical body remains under the punishment of death but will be transformed at His Second Coming.
Direct language from the LORD in both the OT and also in the NT

@Jay made a very serious error in his post #57

Here is the correction that @Jay needs, to return to TRUTH = Hebrews 9:22

According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood,
and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

SHALOM in TRUTH = "Thy Word is TRUTH"
Click to expand...

I do agree that @Jay is making a mistake. However, you are too.

Christ gave His life. The shedding of blood removes life from the flesh. The life of the flesh is in "blood".

I suppose you're one of this people that believe in the "Eternal Blood" of Jesus Christ?

Just so you realize it. The OT speaks of "pouring blood out upon the ground as water"....

Deu 15:23 Only thou shalt not eat the blood thereof; thou shalt pour it upon the ground as water.
 
praise_yeshua said:
What sin did you commit worthy of death? Not all sin is worthy
Click to expand...

Galatians 3:10​

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

James 2:10​

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

Thereforth all are under God's curse, which curse Christ took for his people, which you folks reject! He suffered the penalty of our sins, though despising the shame thereof. Yet, for the joy set before him he gladly bear the shame of the cross.

The apostles would strongly disagree with "your" corrupt theology.

Hebrews 12:2​

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
 
Jay said:
Scripture actually must be taken gravely out of context to come to such a conclusion. Scripture teaches us that Jesus’ death reconciles us to God and is something we must participate in:
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Why do you not come back and defend what you have written and take what has been written and prove it wrong, so far no one has. @civic made a pitiful attempt which we shall address very soon.
Jay said:
Likewise, Jesus saw His incarnation, death and ressurection as something we must participate in:
Click to expand...
All of the elect have legally already! Read Ephesians 2.
Ephesians 2: 4:9~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Click to expand...
Jay said:
I am not denying that, but faith is a first step that places us in a right relationship with God.
Click to expand...
Wrong, so wrong! Faith at best only give us the KNOWLEDGE of what we have in Christ; Christ's obedience and faith is what secured our relationship with the Father, not ours!
Jay said:
We participate with Jesus in His life, death and resurrection and this is what will lead us to salvation.
Click to expand...
Salvation in what sense are you talking about? Truly you have no clue, and neither do your friends.
Jay said:
Jesus has defeated sin and death. He has made right what we caused at the fall. By faith in His whole incarnation, not just His death, we are also made right with God . We are reconcilled to Him and begin this journey:
Click to expand...
You are one confused person, trying to teach others and all you are doing is causing them to not to know the truth ~you are actually keeping truth from others.

So, I ask you: how did Jesus make things right? Need help?

Mark 14:36​

“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”

God gave Jesus a cup to drink, not no one else, and he drunk ALL OF IT willing according to the will of His Father for his elect. Why do you men reject this truth?

Matthew 26:42​

“He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.”

Wicked men did kill Christ, only because that power was given to them, to allow them to carry out their hatred, but they also carried out perfectly God's means of redeeming his people from their sin.

John 19:11​

“Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
 
Red Baker said:
Why do you not come back and defend what you have written and take what has been written and prove it wrong, so far no one has. @civic made a pitiful attempt which we shall address very soon.

All of the elect have legally already! Read Ephesians 2.


Wrong, so wrong! Faith at best only give us the KNOWLEDGE of what we have in Christ; Christ's obedience and faith is what secured our relationship with the Father, not ours!

Salvation in what sense are you talking about? Truly you have no clue, and neither do your friends.

You are one confused person, trying to teach others and all you are doing is causing them to not to know the truth ~you are actually keeping truth from others.

So, I ask you: how did Jesus make things right? Need help?

Mark 14:36​

“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”

God gave Jesus a cup to drink, not no one else, and he drunk ALL OF IT willing according to the will of His Father for his elect. Why do you men reject this truth?

Matthew 26:42​

“He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.”

Wicked men did kill Christ, only because that power was given to them, to allow them to carry out their hatred, but they also carried out perfectly God's means of redeeming his people from their sin.

John 19:11​

“Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
Click to expand...
I completely dismantled every argument of PSA here.

civic

Post in thread 'The Nature of God in the Atonement'

Part 1

The Nature of God in the Atonement

1-Introduction- Definition of theology, attributes and nature of God, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, and PSA (wrath of God arguments).

2-Thesis statement: Scripture does not teach that God’s wrath was poured out on Jesus.

3-Attributes of God : His unchanging nature, His love being the cornerstone.

The main Old Testament Passages where Penal Substitutionary Atonement is Derived: Psalm 22; Isaiah 53

4-New Testament Interpretation of Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17;Mark 15:27-32;John 12:37-41;Luke 22:35-38;Acts 8:26-35;Romans...
  • Like
 
Red Baker said:
Why do you not come back and defend what you have written and take what has been written and prove it wrong, so far no one has. @civic made a pitiful attempt which we shall address very soon.

All of the elect have legally already! Read Ephesians 2.


Wrong, so wrong! Faith at best only give us the KNOWLEDGE of what we have in Christ; Christ's obedience and faith is what secured our relationship with the Father, not ours!

Salvation in what sense are you talking about? Truly you have no clue, and neither do your friends.

You are one confused person, trying to teach others and all you are doing is causing them to not to know the truth ~you are actually keeping truth from others.

So, I ask you: how did Jesus make things right? Need help?

Mark 14:36​

“And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”

God gave Jesus a cup to drink, not no one else, and he drunk ALL OF IT willing according to the will of His Father for his elect. Why do you men reject this truth?

Matthew 26:42​

“He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.”

Wicked men did kill Christ, only because that power was given to them, to allow them to carry out their hatred, but they also carried out perfectly God's means of redeeming his people from their sin.

John 19:11​

“Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.”
Click to expand...
Christ's obedience and faith is what secured our relationship with the Father, not ours!
Click to expand...
AMEN x100
 
PSA

1-makes the Tri-Unity of God a lie and dissolves the Trinity
2-makes God is love a lie
3-makes the gospel a lie
4- makes God a pagan deity
5- makes God unjust

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
PSA

1-makes the Tri-Unity of God a lie and dissolves the Trinity
2-makes God is love a lie
3-makes the gospel a lie
4- makes God a pagan deity
5- makes God unjust

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
It will only be a "help" if you can identify each point from Scripture that declares such.

God determined that the punishment for sin is death.
Therefore, any attempt to undermine His Judgment is from the will of man.
 
DavidTree said:
Who told you this???
God surely did not!!!

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned - Romans 5:12
Click to expand...

You're ripping that verse from those around it. There is context in the message that Paul was preaching. Before get to that.

Did the law demand death for every sin? Simple question. Give your answer.
 

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