Predestination and Determinism

Jesus had a further intention in mind known as the messianic secret

He had a mission to go to the cross. Had he been accepted as messiah the crucifixion would never have happened
I reject the idea that it was a "secret". It wasn't believed. Unbelief blinds.

God extending "blindness" to the "blind that do not believe is for other reasons. It is to limit their impact among man. It is a "cutting off" of influence.

Which is a Benevolent action of Grace that limits the impact of evil. Consider how the Pharisee had to put extraordinary effort (land and sea) to make a single disciple.
 
Well,
Jesus was accepted by some as Messiah, but what the House of Israel didnt understand was why Jesus came, and that was their confusion.

They wanted a King to "get those Romans out of Here and lets get our Kingdom up and running".

But Jesus was sent, ultimately, as a Blood Atonement for the World.

Jesus on The Cross is the Birthday of CHRISTianity., and His resurrection proved it.
Abraham well knew why Jesus would come. So did Moses. So did many faithful.

The problem was the lack of the faithful at the time of the Incarnation. Jesus came right on time.
 
I reject the idea that it was a "secret". It wasn't believed. Unbelief blinds.

God extending "blindness" to the "blind that do not believe is for other reasons. It is to limit their impact among man. It is a "cutting off" of influence.

Which is a Benevolent action of Grace that limits the impact of evil. Consider how the Pharisee had to put extraordinary effort (land and sea) to make a single disciple.
Do these passages seem to suggest that Jesus was keeping a secret from some people while he was down from heaven?

Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12: “But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30: “Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.”

Some scholars refer to Jesus’ use of parabolic language (Matt. 13; Mark 4; John 6:26-71) and His warnings not to tell others that He was the Christ (Matt. 16:20; Mark 1:24-25, 34, 43-45; 3:12; 8:30; 9:9) as the Messianic secret. This addresses Jesus’ expressed desire to keep His “messiah-ness” secret at times while here in the flesh.[1] The Handbook on Biblical Criticism (4th ed.) states,

“Messianic secret refers to a discernible phenomenon in the Gospels, most especially in the Gospel of Mark, in which Jesus explicitly conceals His Messianic character and power until the closing period of His ministry.”[2]

The Messianic secret, if rightly understood, is not Jesus’ attempt to permanently keep people from knowing, believing in, and following Him. Instead, it is the temporary strategy Jesus employed to accomplish redemption on Calvary so that all may be saved through faith in Him after His plan was fulfilled. As the apostle Paul noted:

1 Cor. 2:8-9: “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

Jesus knew that had they believed in Him before the right time then they would not have crucified Him. Therefore, the Lord graciously taught in parables “to those on the outside… so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’” (Mark 4:11b-12). As Paul noted, “God’s secret wisdom…has been hidden” but He has done this for “our glory.”

John 6 is one of the most referenced chapters in the discussion over mankind’s God given abilities to respond willingly to the gospel appeal. Unfortunately, the issue of the “Messianic secret” (or what I have referred to as “Judicial hardening” discussed later) has been virtually ignored in many modern theological circles leading to false interpretations of these contested passages.

What is known about the Israelites of this day? Scripture reveals that they have “become calloused…otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them” (Acts 28:27). They were not born calloused, but over time they had grown hardened in their religious self-righteousness, which prevented them from hearing, seeing and responding to the revelation of God.

At this vital time in human history, they are being “judicially hardened” or “cut off” (Rom. 9:1-3) or “sent a spirit of stupor” (Rom. 11:8) so as to seal them in their already calloused condition (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:27). Scripture tells us that God is hardening the calloused Jews in order to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion. It is God’s ordained plan to bring redemption to the world through the crucifixion of the Messiah by the hands of the rebellious Jews (Acts 2:23).

Jesus is not attempting to persuade everyone to come to faith in great numbers as we see following Pentecost when Peter preaches (Acts 2:41). Quite the opposite seems to be the case, in fact. To accomplish the redemptive plan through Israel’s unbelief, we see Jesus actively instructing His apostles not to tell others who He is yet (Matt. 16:20; Mark 8:30; 9:9).

Moreover, Jesus purposefully speaks in riddles in order to prevent the Jewish leaders coming to faith and repentance (Matt. 13:11-15; Mark 4:11-13). When great numbers began to believe Jesus was truly prophetic, notice how Jesus responded: “‘Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.’ Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by Himself” (John 6:14-15).

Earlier in the same gospel we learn that “many people saw the miraculous signs He was doing and believed in His name. But Jesus would not entrust Himself to them…” (John 2:23b-24a). John later reveals this has been a key part of God’s redemptive plan all along:

John 12:39-40: “Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason, they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn–and I would heal them” (emphasis added).

For what reason could they not believe? Is it because they were rejected by their Maker before the world began? Is it about their being born guilty of Adam’s sin and thus incapable of responding willingly to God’s own appeals for reconciliation? Of course not! They are being temporarily blinded in their already calloused condition so as to accomplish redemption for the world. This is not about God rejecting most of humanity before the world began as the Calvinistic systematic reads into these texts.

Why Riddles?

Mark 4:11-12; 33-34:
“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ …With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when He was alone with His own disciples, He explained everything” (emphasis added).

Clearly, Jesus used riddles, or parables, to keep the Jewish leaders in the dark for a time so as to accomplish a greater redemptive good. This completely undermines Calvinism’s doctrine of “Total Inability.” There is no practical or theological reason for God to put a blind fold on those born totally and completely blind from birth. And there is certainly no reason to hide truth from those in the “corpse-like dead” condition of “Total Inability” proposed by the “T” in Calvinism’s TULIP.

Judicial Hardening

The doctrine of God’s Judicial hardening is crucial in rightly understanding much of the biblical teachings regarding election, predestination and salvation. A misunderstanding or lack of clarity regarding this one doctrine will lead to many more serious misapplications of Scripture.

As a former Calvinist, I can think of no greater point of contention in my struggle over these doctrines than rightly defining God’s active role in judicially hardening Israel from recognizing their own Messiah (especially as it relates to understanding the often referenced proof texts of Romans 9 and John 6). Leighton Flowers
 
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Well,
Jesus was accepted by some as Messiah, but what the House of Israel didnt understand was why Jesus came, and that was their confusion.

They wanted a King to "get those Romans out of Here and lets get our Kingdom up and running".

But Jesus was sent, ultimately, as a Blood Atonement for the World.

Jesus on The Cross is the Birthday of CHRISTianity., and His resurrection proved it.
Some but not enough to dissuade the crucifixion.
 
Do these passages seem to suggest that Jesus was keeping a secret from some people while he was down from heaven?

Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12: “But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30: “Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.”

Some scholars refer to Jesus’ use of parabolic language (Matt. 13; Mark 4; John 6:26-71) and His warnings not to tell others that He was the Christ (Matt. 16:20; Mark 1:24-25, 34, 43-45; 3:12; 8:30; 9:9) as the Messianic secret. This addresses Jesus’ expressed desire to keep His “messiah-ness” secret at times while here in the flesh.[1] The Handbook on Biblical Criticism (4th ed.) states,

“Messianic secret refers to a discernible phenomenon in the Gospels, most especially in the Gospel of Mark, in which Jesus explicitly conceals His Messianic character and power until the closing period of His ministry.”[2]

The Messianic secret, if rightly understood, is not Jesus’ attempt to permanently keep people from knowing, believing in, and following Him. Instead, it is the temporary strategy Jesus employed to accomplish redemption on Calvary so that all may be saved through faith in Him after His plan was fulfilled. As the apostle Paul noted:

1 Cor. 2:8-9: “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

I appreciate the references but I'm well aware of the teaching. It is a mistake and it leads to mistakes in theology. I'm only arguing the point because I believe that every single "piece" of Truth is essential to a mature theology that changes lives.

Which invites such conversations that you're having now. Again. I'm just arguing the point. We agree on many things.

Jesus didn't owe anyone anything. This type of teaching where it is proposed that "God purposed secrets" to further the work of God comes from the perspective that Christ was trying to hide something for the benefit of getting men to seek to murder Him.

All of Israel should have clearly recognized Christ for who He was and WHY he was there. There is this mentality among Arminianism that God owes humanity equal opportunity and equal access to Himself. This position is not true and can never be defended because it is not true. Truth is an anchor. It never changes.

Did Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a donkey? Did the people sing "Hosanna" to their "King"?

The people knew it. The leaders knew it. It is why they sought to murder the heir....

Luk 20:14 But when the tenants saw him, they said to one another, ‘This is the heir; let’s kill him so the inheritance will be ours!’

What many these people did not deserve nor were entitled to.... was for the "Heir" to force them to believe Him. It was an equalizing of the requirements of faith in all generations. Abraham saw His day and was glad..... However, Abraham can't believe for another. We can not believe for others. If we could, it wouldn't of any value to them. Faith is shroud in just enough ambiguity that it requires man to seek God to learn of Him.

Act 17:26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live,
Act 17:27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

I'll continue in another post.
 
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1 Cor. 2:8-9: “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

I don't know the times I've argued this verse with just about everyone from any theological perspective.

It was not a mystery in that wasn't foretold. It was mystery because it wasn't believed by most of humanity. Unbelief made it a mystery to rulers that didn't know God. Abraham knew it. Moses knew it. David knew it. Solomon knew it.

The subsequent rulers that replaced the faithful and abandoned God......certainly didn't know it.

Jesus knew that had they believed in Him before the right time then they would not have crucified Him.

There was never any question relative to the requirement of the Atonement and God didn't need to hide anything from mankind to accomplish the Atonement. This is nothing more than fabricated nonsense to defend an argument that others do not understand.

Jesus willing submitted to lay down His life on the "High Sabbath" of God's planning. This was planned before man was ever created. God didn't need man to do "their part" in the Atonement. I must admit the very idea of this offends me. I believe it is an offense to the Gospel.

God established the Sabbath in creation to "set the stage" for His Atonement for humanity. God established the need of humanity to drink water and eat food to sustain themselves so Jesus could one day announce to humanity that he is... "Living Water".... and THE Bread of Life".

There more answers to this than just to claim some "special mystery" accomplished God's will.
 
Why Riddles?

Mark 4:11-12; 33-34:
“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ …With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when He was alone with His own disciples, He explained everything” (emphasis added).

Clearly, Jesus used riddles, or parables, to keep the Jewish leaders in the dark for a time so as to accomplish a greater redemptive good. This completely undermines Calvinism’s doctrine of “Total Inability.” There is no practical or theological reason for God to put a blind fold on those born totally and completely blind from birth. And there is certainly no reason to hide truth from those in the “corpse-like dead” condition of “Total Inability” proposed by the “T” in Calvinism’s TULIP.

Judicial Hardening

The doctrine of God’s Judicial hardening is crucial in rightly understanding much of the biblical teachings regarding election, predestination and salvation. A misunderstanding or lack of clarity regarding this one doctrine will lead to many more serious misapplications of Scripture.

As a former Calvinist, I can think of no greater point of contention in my struggle over these doctrines than rightly defining God’s active role in judicially hardening Israel from recognizing their own Messiah (especially as it relates to understanding the often referenced proof texts of Romans 9 and John 6). Leighton Flowers

Did Jesus have to expound upon these "riddles" to His own disciples? Why? If it was given to them to understand them, then why didn't they understand?

Easy answer, they didn't believe what they were given to know. Just like we are now. We have the very mind of Christ and yet we have problems with believe what we should. Even Calvinists have this problem even when they claim "special revelation"..... Sometimes I just want to yell... Then tell me everything that God has revealed to you. If you know so much, then do SHARE!

I'm not trying to rant at you brother. Forgive me. I just feel like I need to say this.....

Judicial Hardening from Leighton Flowers comes from a Dispensational view which is wrong.

The apostles were Jews. The early church at Jerusalem eventually was instrumental in the spread of the Gospel among the Gentiles. The judgement that took place in the destruction of Jerusalem destroyed the church at Jerusalem. Which broke their influence among humanity. Until then there is no mistaken the influence of faithful Jews among humanity.
 
1 Cor. 2:8-9: “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

I don't know the times I've argued this verse with just about everyone from any theological perspective.

It was not a mystery in that wasn't foretold. It was mystery because it wasn't believed by most of humanity. Unbelief made it a mystery to rulers that didn't know God. Abraham knew it. Moses knew it. David knew it. Solomon knew it.

The subsequent rulers that replaced the faithful and abandoned God......certainly didn't know it.



There was never any question relative to the requirement of the Atonement and God didn't need to hide anything from mankind to accomplish the Atonement. This is nothing more than fabricated nonsense to defend an argument that others do not understand.

Jesus willing submitted to lay down His life on the "High Sabbath" of God's planning. This was planned before man was ever created. God didn't need man to do "their part" in the Atonement. I must admit the very idea of this offends me. I believe it is an offense to the Gospel.

God established the Sabbath in creation to "set the stage" for His Atonement for humanity. God established the need of humanity to drink water and eat food to sustain themselves so Jesus could one day announce to humanity that he is... "Living Water".... and THE Bread of Life".

There more answers to this than just to claim some "special mystery" accomplished God's will.
You are entitled to your opinion

factors which need to be considered however

Do these passages seem to suggest that Jesus was keeping a secret from some people while he was down from heaven?

Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12:
“But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30:
“Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.

Some scholars refer to Jesus’ use of parabolic language (Matt. 13; Mark 4; John 6:26-71) and His warnings not to tell others that He was the Christ (Matt. 16:20; Mark 1:24-25, 34, 43-45; 3:12; 8:30; 9:9) as the Messianic secret. This addresses Jesus’ expressed desire to keep His “messiah-ness” secret at times while here in the flesh.[1] The Handbook on Biblical Criticism (4th ed.) states,

“Messianic secret refers to a discernible phenomenon in the Gospels, most especially in the Gospel of Mark, in which Jesus explicitly conceals His Messianic character and power until the closing period of His ministry.”[2]

The Messianic secret, if rightly understood, is not Jesus’ attempt to permanently keep people from knowing, believing in, and following Him. Instead, it is the temporary strategy Jesus employed to accomplish redemption on Calvary so that all may be saved through faith in Him after His plan was fulfilled. As the apostle Paul noted:

1 Cor. 2:8-9: “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

Jesus knew that had they believed in Him before the right time then they would not have crucified Him. Therefore, the Lord graciously taught in parables “to those on the outside… so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’” (Mark 4:11b-12). As Paul noted, “God’s secret wisdom…has been hidden” but He has done this for “our glory.”

John 6 is one of the most referenced chapters in the discussion over mankind’s God given abilities to respond willingly to the gospel appeal. Unfortunately, the issue of the “Messianic secret” (or what I have referred to as “Judicial hardening” discussed later) has been virtually ignored in many modern theological circles leading to false interpretations of these contested passages.

What is known about the Israelites of this day? Scripture reveals that they have “become calloused…otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them” (Acts 28:27). They were not born calloused, but over time they had grown hardened in their religious self-righteousness, which prevented them from hearing, seeing and responding to the revelation of God.

At this vital time in human history, they are being “judicially hardened” or “cut off” (Rom. 9:1-3) or “sent a spirit of stupor” (Rom. 11:8) so as to seal them in their already calloused condition (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:27). Scripture tells us that God is hardening the calloused Jews in order to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through their rebellion. It is God’s ordained plan to bring redemption to the world through the crucifixion of the Messiah by the hands of the rebellious Jews (Acts 2:23).

Jesus is not attempting to persuade everyone to come to faith in great numbers as we see following Pentecost when Peter preaches (Acts 2:41). Quite the opposite seems to be the case, in fact. To accomplish the redemptive plan through Israel’s unbelief, we see Jesus actively instructing His apostles not to tell others who He is yet (Matt. 16:20; Mark 8:30; 9:9).

Moreover, Jesus purposefully speaks in riddles in order to prevent the Jewish leaders coming to faith and repentance (Matt. 13:11-15; Mark 4:11-13). When great numbers began to believe Jesus was truly prophetic, notice how Jesus responded: “‘Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.’ Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by Himself” (John 6:14-15).

Earlier in the same gospel we learn that “many people saw the miraculous signs He was doing and believed in His name. But Jesus would not entrust Himself to them…” (John 2:23b-24a). John later reveals this has been a key part of God’s redemptive plan all along:

John 12:39-40: “Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason, they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn–and I would heal them” (emphasis added).

For what reason could they not believe? Is it because they were rejected by their Maker before the world began? Is it about their being born guilty of Adam’s sin and thus incapable of responding willingly to God’s own appeals for reconciliation? Of course not! They are being temporarily blinded in their already calloused condition so as to accomplish redemption for the world. This is not about God rejecting most of humanity before the world began as the Calvinistic systematic reads into these texts.

Why Riddles?

Mark 4:11-12; 33-34: “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ …With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when He was alone with His own disciples,
He explained everything” (emphasis added).

Clearly, Jesus used riddles, or parables, to keep the Jewish leaders in the dark for a time so as to accomplish a greater redemptive good. This completely undermines Calvinism’s doctrine of “Total Inability.” There is no practical or theological reason for God to put a blind fold on those born totally and completely blind from birth. And there is certainly no reason to hide truth from those in the “corpse-like dead” condition of “Total Inability” proposed by the “T” in Calvinism’s TULIP.
 
Did Jesus have to expound upon these "riddles" to His own disciples? Why? If it was given to them to understand them, then why didn't they understand?

Easy answer, they didn't believe what they were given to know. Just like we are now. We have the very mind of Christ and yet we have problems with believe what we should. Even Calvinists have this problem even when they claim "special revelation"..... Sometimes I just want to yell... Then tell me everything that God has revealed to you. If you know so much, then do SHARE!

I'm not trying to rant at you brother. Forgive me. I just feel like I need to say this.....

Judicial Hardening from Leighton Flowers comes from a Dispensational view which is wrong.

The apostles were Jews. The early church at Jerusalem eventually was instrumental in the spread of the Gospel among the Gentiles. The judgement that took place in the destruction of Jerusalem destroyed the church at Jerusalem. Which broke their influence among humanity. Until then there is no mistaken the influence of faithful Jews among humanity.
They did after he explained them. The others received no explanation and were kept in the dark

Jesus even used difficult unexplained speech like eating his flesh and drinking his blood causing all his disciples to leave him except the 12
 
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They did after he explained them. The others received no explanation and were kept in the dark

Correct. Which means that Jesus had to expound upon what he had told them before. Jesus was critiquing them. Not complimenting them.

Jesus even used difficult unexplained things like eating his flesh and drinking his blood causing all his disciples to leave him except the 12

Because the disciples had a relationship with Christ. They trusted Him even when they didn't understand what He said.

Which is what Jesus wanted from them and the crowd that heard Him.

The relationship problem was the crowds problem. It wasn't that Jesus had different requirements nor was trying to hide anything from any of them.
 
Did Jesus have to expound upon these "riddles" to His own disciples? Why? If it was given to them to understand them, then why didn't they understand?

Easy answer, they didn't believe what they were given to know. Just like we are now. We have the very mind of Christ and yet we have problems with believe what we should. Even Calvinists have this problem even when they claim "special revelation"..... Sometimes I just want to yell... Then tell me everything that God has revealed to you. If you know so much, then do SHARE!

I'm not trying to rant at you brother. Forgive me. I just feel like I need to say this.....

Judicial Hardening from Leighton Flowers comes from a Dispensational view which is wrong.

The apostles were Jews. The early church at Jerusalem eventually was instrumental in the spread of the Gospel among the Gentiles. The judgement that took place in the destruction of Jerusalem destroyed the church at Jerusalem. Which broke their influence among humanity. Until then there is no mistaken the influence of faithful Jews among humanity.
I have an opinion which lines up with the second half of Ronans chapter 1. God says 3 times that He turned them over to their depraved minds. This was only after they continued in their wiling rebellion against God after they had known Him. This is the condition the Pharisees were in who became of a reprobate mind like those in Romans 1 and God gives them over and we see all the same curses Jesus gives those Pharisees in Matthew 23 and John 8 where He called their father the devil.
 
Correct. Which means that Jesus had to expound upon what he had told them before. Jesus was critiquing them. Not complimenting them.

Not the point

Jesus was keepng all the people he offered no explaination to in the dark
Because the disciples had a relationship with Christ. They trusted Him even when they didn't understand what He said.

Which is what Jesus wanted from them and the crowd that heard Him.

The relationship problem was the crowds problem. It wasn't that Jesus had different requirements nor was trying to hide anything from any of them.
That claim seems rather doubtful to me

Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12:
“But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30:
“Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.

Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

as it seems to me he definitely desired to keep some in the dark
 
So why did you not answer it
I did, the subtlety of the answer eluded you.

You are plucking the verse out of its context to make a point that YOU want to make rather than the point that Scripture was making within that broader context. I pointed towards that fact by pressing YOUR point to its conclusion to see if you really believed that scripture was claiming what you were attempting to tell me that that passage was claiming ... specifically: "All men have libertine (free from all outside influences like the absolute control of God: predestination) free will to choose and the proof is in the verse (which you quoted) stating that God had to force them to not believe."

I find your view that God forces people to not believe even more troubling and contrary to the nature of the loving Father of scripture than your belief that the real power of salvation lies in man's control over God's ability to save "whomever He chooses". That you have an answer is "nice". That you have no intention of really defending your position beyond misapplying scriptures (unless you really do believe in supralapsarianism, your appeal to God forcing me to not believe is a red herring) is typical of humancentric theology.
 
Not the point

When you start excluding evidence, there is no point. It had meaning.

Jesus was keepng all the people he offered no explaination to in the dark

You at least you want to establish your premises. You're good at doing this. Thank you. However, your limiting evidence in this.

The disciples stayed around to get MORE information. The others left. Which is why they didn't get more information.

Certainly you can't deny this being a plausible explanation/altenative?


Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12:
“But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30:
“Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.

Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

as it seems to me he definitely desired to keep some in the dark

So what exactly did this prevent? Jesus rode into Jerusalem unmistakably fulfilling prophecy that they all knew. They still sought to murder Him.
 
I did, the subtlety of the answer eluded you.

You are plucking the verse out of its context to make a point that YOU want to make rather than the point that Scripture was making within that broader context. I pointed towards that fact by pressing YOUR point to its conclusion to see if you really believed that scripture was claiming what you were attempting to tell me that that passage was claiming ... specifically: "All men have libertine (free from all outside influences like the absolute control of God: predestination) free will to choose and the proof is in the verse (which you quoted) stating that God had to force them to not believe."

I find your view that God forces people to not believe even more troubling and contrary to the nature of the loving Father of scripture than your belief that the real power of salvation lies in man's control over God's ability to save "whomever He chooses". That you have an answer is "nice". That you have no intention of really defending your position beyond misapplying scriptures (unless you really do believe in supralapsarianism, your appeal to God forcing me to not believe is a red herring) is typical of humancentric theology.

That is interesting, isn't it. It's repulsive for God to choose whom to save and not to save, but not for God to make sure certain people can't believe.
 
That is interesting, isn't it. It's repulsive for God to choose whom to save and not to save, but not for God to make sure certain people can't believe.

I've told Arminians for a very long time, that Reprobation and The Remnant are two areas they have serious problems with. However, this doesn't make "Calvinism" right. It isn't. Not even close.

What did the Pharisees do when they made disciples of men? THEY made them two fold child of hell more than they were. Reprobation is God's judgment to limit the impact of the hopeless upon humanity. It is why your children still have hope. God is making sure the message still stays active in humanity brother.
 
When you start excluding evidence, there is no point. It had meaning.



You at least you want to establish your premises. You're good at doing this. Thank you. However, your limiting evidence in this.

The disciples stayed around to get MORE information. The others left. Which is why they didn't get more information.

Certainly you can't deny this being a plausible explanation/altenative?




So what exactly did this prevent? Jesus rode into Jerusalem unmistakably fulfilling prophecy that they all knew. They still sought to murder Him.
We are going to have to agree to disagree

I see no way of denying Christ determined to keep some in the dark

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Mark 9:9: “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.”

Matt. 16:20: “Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.”

Mark 3:12:
“But he gave them strict orders not to tell who He was.”

Mark 8:30:
“Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about Him.

Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

as it seems to me he definitely desired to keep some in the dark
 
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