Predestination and Determinism

[Administrator]

ditto the difference between religion ( in the head ) and relationship ( in the heart ).

Today I plan to start a section on "Living for God is all that matters" A subsection to that will be something along the lines of "narrow-mindedness". I think the Pharisees were quite guilty of being narrow-minded. As they only saw what they wanted to see. They had the lord of Glory right in front of them and couldn't recognize him,

 

[TomL]

Don't you see how this contradicts the notion that Jesus said, "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"? If it is a work God requires, and you do the work that God requires, then salvation is not credited as grace but as what is due.

The issue is merit.

Paul denied there is any merit in faith, and Jesus certainly did not claim that there was

So by what right do you reject scripture

Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
......................
Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

scripture just affirmed faith is in accordance with grace, but you want to make meritorious opposing scripture,

for it is not by scripture you imagine faith involves merit but your theology, which has been exalted against the word of God.

 

[Presby02]

Read Matt 25:23. A faithful servant is one who multiplies his God-given "talents" and enters into the joy of the Lord. No boasting to be seen here. A calvinist would rip that parable out of his Bible and scream "Merit!" in utter horror.

23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

Do you understand the difference between grounds for boasting and actual boasting?

If you do then all you have done is post more irrelevant proof texts. A common practice among Provisionists.

And i will as long as you keep ignoring God's word

Again you exalt your reasoning above the word of God

Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
......................
Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

scripture just affirmed faith is in accordance with grace, but you want to make meritorious opposing scripture

As i asked previously what makes you imagine your reasoning is a substitute for God's word?

Ps you are not reasoning together by ignoring his word

Just keep repeating yourselfif it's your faith and you choose to exercise it correctly and are rewarded for doing so, that's called MERIT.

And I answered. "Come let us reason together".

Who is ignoring His word? Your position is contradictory and unbiblical.

 

[civic]

Today I plan to start a section on "Living for God is all that matters" A subsection to that will be something along the lines of "narrow-mindedness". I think the Pharisees were quite guilty of being narrow-minded. As they only saw what they wanted to see. They had the lord of Glory right in front of them and couldn't recognize him,

So true the living word of life right before their very eyes.

 

[Presby02]

So true the living word of life right before their very eyes.

Right before your eyes as well.

 

[civic]

Do you understand the difference between grounds for boasting and actual boasting?

If you do then all you have done is post more irrelevant proof texts. A common practice among Provisionists.

Just keep repeating yourselfif it's your faith and you choose to exercise it correctly and are rewarded for doing so, that's called MERIT.

And I answered. "Come let us reason together".

Who is ignoring His word? Your position is contradictory and unbiblical.

talk about proof texting with a partial verse about reasoning together lol.

 

[Presby02]

talk about proof texting with a partial verse about reasoning together lol.

LOL, you would know that's for sure.
Pot pot.......

 

[civic]

Right before your eyes as well.

yes He is before my very eyes right now, in my mind, heart, dwelling in me.

I hear Him all of the time throughout my day .

In Him I live, move and have my being

The Good Shepherd guides me.

I follow Him

hope this helps !!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God requires man to believe which is exactly what Jesus said above. If you want to do Gods work in your life you must believe, exercise faith in Christ. Believe in Him, receive Him. Its as simple as that.

But the argument free-willers put forth is that this is the WORK God requires, because the people asked “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” If the answer is "This is the work God requires" instead of "This is the work of God", then when you believe in Him whom He has sent, you have done what God requires. God MUST save you because you did the work God requires, in which case, salvation is not of grace, since the reward is due to you because you did what was required.

 

[civic]

But the argument free-willers put forth is that this is the WORK God requires, because the people asked “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” If the answer is "This is the work God requires" instead of "This is the work of God", then when you believe in Him whom He has sent, you have done what God requires. God MUST save you because you did the work God requires, in which case, salvation is not of grace, since the reward is due to you because you did what was required.

Faith is always the condition God requires to be saved.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Faith is always the condition God requires to be saved.

But if Faith is the work God requires, then salvation is not of grace. God is obligated to save you because you did the work God requires.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But the argument free-willers put forth is that this is the WORK God requires, because the people asked “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” If the answer is "This is the work God requires" instead of "This is the work of God", then when you believe in Him whom He has sent, you have done what God requires. God MUST save you because you did the work God requires, in which case, salvation is not of grace, since the reward is due to you because you did what was required.

The word Grace is found 170 times in the Scriptures. Grace isn't "extinguished" or "made void" because God requires the willingness of man to experience the benefit thereof.

You are establishing this requirement in your comments.

Most Calvinists will accept this fact. What Calvinist then seek to establish is that God uniquely enables some to be willing participants. Which is why they preach/teaching regeneration takes place before faith.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The word Grace is found 170 times in the Scriptures. Grace isn't "extinguished" or "made void" because God requires the willingness of man to experience the benefit thereof.

You are establish this requirement in your comments.

Most Calvinists will accept this fact. What Calvinist then seek to establish is that God uniquely enables some to be willing participants. Which is why they preach/teaching regeneration takes place before faith.

Grace is made void when you say that Faith is the WORK GOD REQUIRES. You can cling to free will, but you still have to forfeit the notion that when Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent", Jesus meant "This is the work God requires". Otherwise you have nullified grace.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But if Faith is the work God requires, then salvation is not of grace. God is obligated to save you because you did the work God requires.

God is obligated to save those who by faith accept HIS WORK.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Dare the writer use the word "BOLDNESS".

Is there Boldness in Grace? Would you deny such?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God is obligated to save those who by faith accept HIS WORK.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Dare the writer use the word "BOLDNESS".

Is there Boldness in Grace? Would you deny such?

That scripture has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Going boldly for help is not the same thing as faith being the WORK GOD REQUIRES.

Grace is made void when you say that Faith is the WORK GOD REQUIRES. You can cling to free will, but you still have to forfeit the notion that when Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent", Jesus meant "This is the work God requires". Otherwise you have nullified grace.

 

[Presby02]

yes He is before my very eyes right now, in my mind, heart, dwelling in me.

I hear Him all of the time throughout my day .

In Him I live, move and have my being

The Good Shepherd guides me.

I follow Him

hope this helps !!!

Lol, ya okay.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Grace is made void when you say that Faith is the WORK GOD REQUIRES.

No. It is still the work of God. It is never our own work. It is a trust and belief in the work of another. Christ is the meritorious effort to redeem humanity. There is no other meritorious work. Redemption was earned by Christ (God) It was Grace in benevolence to offer such conditionally to man.

You can cling to free will, but you still have to forfeit the notion that when Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent", Jesus meant "This is the work God requires". Otherwise you have nullified grace.

Again. Grace isn't absent effort. God's effort conditional upon a willing faith to believe God. Faith is never a work. Faith rests in God's effort.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No. It is still the work of God. It is never our own work. It is a trust and belief in the work of another. Christ is the meritorious effort to redeem humanity. There is no other meritorious work. Redemption was earned by Christ (God) It was Grace in benevolence to offer such conditionally to man.

So the correct interpretation is, after all, "This is the WORK OF GOD", not "This is the WORK GOD REQUIRES".

 

[Presby02]

But the argument free-willers put forth is that this is the WORK God requires, because the people asked “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” If the answer is "This is the work God requires" instead of "This is the work of God", then when you believe in Him whom He has sent, you have done what God requires. God MUST save you because you did the work God requires, in which case, salvation is not of grace, since the reward is due to you because you did what was required.

Great point!

 

[praise_yeshua]

That scripture has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Going boldly for help is not the same thing as faith being the WORK GOD REQUIRES.

Boldness is God readiness to accept faith because of His own work.

You're making a circular argument.

Grace is made void when you say that Faith is the WORK GOD REQUIRES.

God enabled the ability to believe. That was His work. A work that only He can perform. It is an conditional enabling due to His own effort. That is why it is never anything other than a gift.

Example,

Did you buy one of your daughters a car? I did. Offering it as a gift doesn't change the fact that you still own the car does it?

If you have an example of what you're saying. Please share.

You can cling to free will, but you still have to forfeit the notion that when Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent", Jesus meant "This is the work God requires". Otherwise you have nullified grace.

I reject your requirement. Grace is used 170 times in the Bible and that Grace is extend to all of humanity. As such, it is never an exclusive benefit of some "elect".

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.