Predestination and Determinism

[praise_yeshua]

This is one of those statements that yes it is but no it's not depending on what one is meaning. Is Faith a gift from God? Well it would have to be that is in a certain sense but let's make sure we keep it categorized in context correctly. There is THIS about what's called a spiritual gift of faith,

1 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit......... (and down to verse 8,9) 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1 Cor 12: 4,9

So there we see FAITH we can say of a certain type is given as a gift but what is that saying and what isn't it saying? This is faith of certain type which is imparted for ministry at a certain place at a certain time. This is really talking about a supernatural boldness of knowing something with confidence will happen when you do a certain thing.

This is not FAITH of a different type, the larger type which has to do with our own personal lives.....that is FAITH for things relative to us like salvation or other everyday faith needed to walk in our own lives before God, THIS RATHER is a supernatural boldness of knowing something and as I say it's basically only connected to the ministry of others outside of yourself.


So again needs to be defined. We can say David in the Psalms would indeed muster up faith and confidence in God by reminding himself of God's word and ways. So when WE yes I said WE meditate upon the words of Jesus and the promises of God we are solidifying and strengthening our faith. The Bible says let the words of Christ dwell in us richly. Why?

Because we're putting ourselves in the place of having faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but in a sense we are mustering it up by taking the actions of what we do with our time.....dwelling upon and thinking upon God's word. But no it's not a willpower thing. It's merely a thing of enlightenment where when we know God is good and keeps his word and when we see then what he says......you're in the place of faith.

There are several issues with the Calvinist view of faith that are overlooked by them.

1. The claim that faith is a gift.

All good things come from above. ALL good things. faith is certainly a gift. So is rain. So is God goodness upon all of humanity.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Claiming faith is a gift doesn't establish the argument made by the Calvinist that faith is unique to the "elect". Salvation requires more than just faith. Faith is common among mankind. It is not a unique quality of just the elect.

2. Disobedience does not disqualify faith.

Even the Calvinist believe that faith is not a work. Nor is faith in God an absolute deterrent to sin. Faith is belief regardless of sinfulness and weaknesses.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


3. Faith grows. There is a measure to faith. Some have MORE than others.

All God requires for redemption is a very small faith.

Example.... Notice that Jesus accepts a very small degree of faith from a "faithless generation"......

Mar 9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

Notice this desperate "father" among them.
Mar 9:17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

Notice this father's almost unperceivable faith and Jesus's appeal to him.

Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

In desperation with nothing left to offer, he recognizes that he has nothing more than the begins of faith.

Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

However, it was enough.

Mar 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

The Calvinist insists you either have it or you don't. Which is an extreme oversimplication. This is known as the "oversimplication cause" fallacy. Which is very common in the teaching of Calvinism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And no mention of the Holy Spirit-while I appreciate your attempt to put it in context I stand by what I have posted.

Some examples of the Definite Article with pisteos

Romans 3:22 - "διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ" (dia pisteos Iesou Christou) - This passage refers to "faith in Jesus Christ" with the definite article "Ἰησοῦ" (Iesou).

Romans 10:8 - "ἡ δὲ πίστις ἣν κηρύσσομεν" (he de pistis hen kerussomen) - This verse mentions "the faith" that is proclaimed, emphasizing the specific nature of the faith being discussed.

1 Timothy 3:9 - "ἔχοντες τὸ μυστήριον τῆς πίστεως" (echontes to mysterion tes pisteos) - Here, the passage talks about holding "the mystery of the faith," indicating a specific and defined aspect of faith.

Shalom @Rockson

So when someone mentions the context of God.... you're excluding the Holy Spirit? You're crafting your own requirement.

Oh the arguments made from a misunderstand of the definitive article......

The definitive article used with John THE Baptist didn't make John the ONLY one that practiced baptism.

 

[civic]

This is one of those statements that yes it is but no it's not depending on what one is meaning. Is Faith a gift from God? Well it would have to be that is in a certain sense but let's make sure we keep it categorized in context correctly. There is THIS about what's called a spiritual gift of faith,

1 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit......... (and down to verse 8,9) 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1 Cor 12: 4,9

So there we see FAITH we can say of a certain type is given as a gift but what is that saying and what isn't it saying? This is faith of certain type which is imparted for ministry at a certain place at a certain time. This is really talking about a supernatural boldness of knowing something with confidence will happen when you do a certain thing.

This is not FAITH of a different type, the larger type which has to do with our own personal lives.....that is FAITH for things relative to us like salvation or other everyday faith needed to walk in our own lives before God, THIS RATHER is a supernatural boldness of knowing something and as I say it's basically only connected to the ministry of others outside of yourself.


So again needs to be defined. We can say David in the Psalms would indeed muster up faith and confidence in God by reminding himself of God's word and ways. So when WE yes I said WE meditate upon the words of Jesus and the promises of God we are solidifying and strengthening our faith. The Bible says let the words of Christ dwell in us richly. Why?

Because we're putting ourselves in the place of having faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but in a sense we are mustering it up by taking the actions of what we do with our time.....dwelling upon and thinking upon God's word. But no it's not a willpower thing. It's merely a thing of enlightenment where when we know God is good and keeps his word and when we see then what he says......you're in the place of faith.

This is where synergism comes into play since faith is the requirement God places on mankind from the beginning before the law. That never changed after the law and moving forward to the N.T. times and our present day. God does the saving, man does the believing and nowhere do we see God giving an unbeliever faith.

All those Jesus healed required faith before they were healed. Jesus marvels many times in the gospels about the great faith He saw in people. And He never once said it was by the faith He gave them that caused their salvation or healing. He always placed the onus on those He talked with to believe in Him, to follow Him implying they had a will that was free to choose to believe in Him or reject Him. Volition is unavoidable in Jesus teachings and in all the parables.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is where synergism comes into play since faith is the requirement God places on mankind from the beginning before the law. That never changed after the law and moving forward to the N.T. times and our present day. God does the saving, man does the believing and nowhere do we see God giving an unbeliever faith.

All those Jesus healed required faith before they were healed. Jesus marvels many times in the gospels about the great faith He saw in people. And He never once said it was by the faith He gave them that caused their salvation or healing. He always placed the onus on those He talked with to believe in Him, to follow Him implying they had a will that was free to choose to believe in Him or reject Him. Volition is unavoidable in Jesus teachings and in all the parables.

@Johann

Faith is also taught. Faith can be passed from generation to generation. In fact, God demands it.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Notice the appeal "AFTER HIM" (Abraham)

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[civic]

@Johann

Faith is also taught. Faith can be passed from generation to generation. In fact, God demands it.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Notice the appeal "AFTER HIM" (Abraham)

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Great point as my children and grandchildren have observed my wife and my faith over the years. They have seen God working in our lives and the faith we have demonstrated in God and His faithfulness at work.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This is where synergism comes into play since faith is the requirement God places on mankind from the beginning before the law. That never changed after the law and moving forward to the N.T. times and our present day. God does the saving, man does the believing and nowhere do we see God giving an unbeliever faith.

All those Jesus healed required faith before they were healed. Jesus marvels many times in the gospels about the great faith He saw in people. And He never once said it was by the faith He gave them that caused their salvation or healing. He always placed the onus on those He talked with to believe in Him, to follow Him implying they had a will that was free to choose to believe in Him or reject Him. Volition is unavoidable in Jesus teachings and in all the parables.

Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Was that because of the man's faith? If so, did that man have saving faith, or are we talking about two different kinds of faith?

 

[civic]

Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Was that because of the man's faith? If so, did that man have saving faith, or are we talking about two different kinds of faith?

Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you.


Luke 7
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."


Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"


Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."


Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.


Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."


Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."


Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

and all were dead in their sins, unregenerate.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Lily]

think of the religious faith of the pharisees that Jesus condemned.

It's funny that you should mention that as I have been thinking about it. I think there's a big lesson to learn from the mindset of the Pharisees.

 

[civic]

It's funny that you should mention that as I have been thinking about it. I think there's a big lesson to learn from the mindset of the Pharisees.

ditto the difference between religion ( in the head ) and relationship ( in the heart ).

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you.


Luke 7
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."


Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"


Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."


Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.


Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."


Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."


Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

and all were dead in their sins, unregenerate.

hope this helps !!!

That doesn't answer my question. Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Was that because of the man's faith? If so, did that man have saving faith, or are we talking about two different kinds of faith?

 

[Rockson]

He always placed the onus on those He talked with to believe in Him, to follow Him implying they had a will that was free to choose to believe in Him or reject Him. Volition is unavoidable in Jesus teachings and in all the parables.

It was the structure and platform upon which how he presented his whole ministry. When Calvinists flippantly claim it wasn't so it is an egregious error beyond description .

 

[TomL]

I wonder at times since it was never their own faith to begin with and they were zapped with it from an outside impersonal force.

Biblical faith rejects ones own effort and trust solely on christ

It leaves no room for boasting

 

[civic]

That doesn't answer my question. Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Was that because of the man's faith? If so, did that man have saving faith, or are we talking about two different kinds of faith?

Same faith.

A friend of mine writes :

1. Miracles that confirmed existing faith

• Healing the Nobleman's son, John 4:43-54
• The healing of Peter's mother-in-law is difficult to categorize. Certainly, Peter's faith was strengthened; but his mother-in-law was unconscious and unaware Jesus was there until healed. Mark 1:29, 30.
• The first leper, Mark 1:40-45
• The centurion who requested healing of his servant already had very great faith, Luke 7:1-10
• The feeding of the 5000 clearly strengthened the faith of all who saw it, Mark 6:30-44

1. Miracles used to initiate faith in Jesus

• The faith of Nicodemus was initiated by hearing about & seeing Jesus' miracles, John 3:2
• healing the invalid at Bethesda, John 5:1-17
• the miraculous catch of fish, Luke 5:1-11, effectively created Peter (& James and John's) faith in Jesus
• The exorcism of the demoniac initiated the faith of many, Mark 1:21-28
• the healing of the blind and dumb demoniac (Matt 12:22-28) was clearly to initiate the faith of the crowds that observed.
• It is also difficult to categorize the healing of the demoniacs of Gadara - it appears that the miracle was performed despite the requests of the spirits, Mark 5:1-20

... and so forth. Many miracles were initiated by Jesus without any request by any human.

Therefore, I see no difficulty in Jesus' miracle of the man at the pool, being an example of a faith initiating miracle. That is, the man had not sought Jesus for a miracle and did not know him. However, Jesus healed anyway. The same is true of the man born blind (John 9) who did not know Jesus and had not sought healing, but later believed (V38).

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Same faith.

A friend of mine writes :

1. Miracles that confirmed existing faith

• Healing the Nobleman's son, John 4:43-54
• The healing of Peter's mother-in-law is difficult to categorize. Certainly, Peter's faith was strengthened; but his mother-in-law was unconscious and unaware Jesus was there until healed. Mark 1:29, 30.
• The first leper, Mark 1:40-45
• The centurion who requested healing of his servant already had very great faith, Luke 7:1-10
• The feeding of the 5000 clearly strengthened the faith of all who saw it, Mark 6:30-44

1. Miracles used to initiate faith in Jesus

• The faith of Nicodemus was initiated by hearing about & seeing Jesus' miracles, John 3:2
• healing the invalid at Bethesda, John 5:1-17
• the miraculous catch of fish, Luke 5:1-11, effectively created Peter (& James and John's) faith in Jesus
• The exorcism of the demoniac initiated the faith of many, Mark 1:21-28
• the healing of the blind and dumb demoniac (Matt 12:22-28) was clearly to initiate the faith of the crowds that observed.
• It is also difficult to categorize the healing of the demoniacs of Gadara - it appears that the miracle was performed despite the requests of the spirits, Mark 5:1-20

... and so forth. Many miracles were initiated by Jesus without any request by any human.

Therefore, I see no difficulty in Jesus' miracle of the man at the pool, being an example of a faith initiating miracle. That is, the man had not sought Jesus for a miracle and did not know him. However, Jesus healed anyway. The same is true of the man born blind (John 9) who did not know Jesus and had not sought healing, but later believed (V38).

What do you make of what Jesus told him later? 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

 

[civic]

What do you make of what Jesus told him later?

He better listen to Jesus and stop sinning- live by faith if he wants to remain healed.

 

[praise_yeshua]

He better listen to Jesus and stop sinning- live by faith if he wants to remain healed.

Or having someone to help us through life.

We have not because we ask not. Salvation doesn't stop bad things but it sure makes it better with Jesus with us.

Sometimes is more about Him than the circumstances. We often pray to be removed from trouble without recognizing He is there with us.

What do we prefer..... Freedom from trouble or fellowship with Him. He is our treasure.

 

[TomL]

Just keep repeating yourself.

POST #312

Ignoring His word? I ignore your silly understanding, not the word itself.

And i will as long as you keep ignoring God's word

Again you exalt your reasoning above the word of God

Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
......................
Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

scripture just affirmed faith is in accordance with grace, but you want to make meritorious opposing scripture

As i asked previously what makes you imagine your reasoning is a substitute for God's word?

Ps you are not reasoning together by ignoring his word

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And i will as long as you keep ignoring God's word

Again you exalt your reasoning above the word of God

Romans 4:1–5 (NASB 2020) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
......................
Romans 4:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

scripture just affirmed faith is in accordance with grace, but you want to make meritorious opposing scripture

As i asked previously what makes you imagine your reasoning is a substitute for God's word?

Ps you are not reasoning together by ignoring his word

Don't you see how this contradicts the notion that Jesus said, "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"? If it is a work God requires, and you do the work that God requires, then salvation is not credited as grace but as what is due.

 

[civic]

Don't you see how this contradicts the notion that Jesus said, "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"? If it is a work God requires, and you do the work that God requires, then salvation is not credited as grace but as what is due.

God requires man to believe which is exactly what Jesus said above. If you want to do Gods work in your life you must believe, exercise faith in Christ. Believe in Him, receive Him. Its as simple as that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Don't you see how this contradicts the notion that Jesus said, "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent"? If it is a work God requires, and you do the work that God requires, then salvation is not credited as grace but as what is due.

Did Paul talk of work required through indebtedness? Such doesn't save but it is still required. There is no contradiction.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.