Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation

I have identified the 2 moderators on this forum and they both post so give it a rest. You are not the forum police. Its my forum and this is how we chose to run this forum.

I know several forums that run it the same way and the members never once questioned it or had a problem with how it was ran.

Most of us here came from that forum. Unlike the founder of that other forum I interact here with the members on a daily basis. I'm accessible to everyone here.

As we grow we might add a couple more moderators and they will be members here. So for instance if you became one you would still be Matthias with moderator under your name. If I became one civic would have moderator/administrator under my name. I my do that one day that is still up in the air because its not what I want to do of be on this forum. I just want to be like the other members and debate doctrine and talk about scripture. That is what I enjoy, moderating is not enjoyable for me.

I spent thirty plus years working for a regulatory agency. I have no interest in being a moderator on this or any other Internet discussion forum. The only person I’m going to moderate is myself.

You clarified here that any member of the forum who is appointed a moderator in the future will be identified as such under their name. That is the only thing I was suggesting. That’s transparency.

This will be the last post here on the topic from anyone. I will have the @Administrator delete the posts since this is off topic from the OP.

I recommend that those posts be moved and preserved in another location on the forum rather than deleted. Once you start deleting posts you’ve sent a message that is counter to your stated concept / vision for the forum.
 
Subject Heading:- 'The Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation'
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.​
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.​
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory​

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.​
'Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For
by Him were all things created,
.. that are in heaven,
.... and that are in earth,
...... visible and invisible,
........ whether they be thrones,
.......... or dominions,
............ or principalities,
.............. or powers:
................ all things were created by Him,
.................. and for Him:
And He is before all things,
.. and by Him all things consist.
.... And He is the head of the body, the church:
...... Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
........ that in all things He might have the preeminence.'

(Col 1:15-18)

Hello @civic,

* The Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the, 'The Firstborn,' ( in terms of time ), in verses 15 & 18 (above). As in Romans 8:29 and Hebrews 1:6

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'

(Romans 8:29)

'And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."'

(Heb 1:6)

* I love the stress on the word, 'firstbegotten' here in this context: where the comparison is being made between the Lord Jesus Christ and Angelic beings, for He is God's 'only begotten Son', He was not, 'created,' as they were (1 John 4:9).

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


:)
 
Subject Heading:- 'The Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation'

'Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For
by Him were all things created,
.. that are in heaven,
.... and that are in earth,
...... visible and invisible,
........ whether they be thrones,
.......... or dominions,
............ or principalities,
.............. or powers:
................ all things were created by Him,
.................. and for Him:
And He is before all things,
.. and by Him all things consist.
.... And He is the head of the body, the church:
...... Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
........ that in all things He might have the preeminence.'

(Col 1:15-18)

Hello @civic,

* The Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the, 'The Firstborn,' ( in terms of time ), in verses 15 & 18 (above). As in Romans 8:29 and Hebrews 1:6

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'

(Romans 8:29)

'And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."'

(Heb 1:6)

* I love the stress on the word, 'firstbegotten' here in this context: where the comparison is being made between the Lord Jesus Christ and Angelic beings, for He is God's 'only begotten Son', He was not, 'created,' as they were (1 John 4:9).

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


:)

When, where and how was the Son begotten by God?
 
When, where and how was the Son begotten by God?

Hello @Matthias, :)

The title, 'The firstborn of every creature', should not be misunderstood. It does not mean that Christ was the first of all created things; the explanation that follows forbids it - 'for by Him were all things created. It cannot mean, that, before this, He had no existence, for this reasoning would lead to an impossible conclusion if applied to the parallel title - 'the Firstborn from the dead'. The title is one of dignity - 'That in all things He might have pre-eminence'.

* Speaking of the resurrection, Psalm 2:7 records: 'Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee'. This cannot possibly mean that Christ was not the Son of God before His resurrection, or that He had no existence prior to resurrection. Revelation 1:5 brings the two thoughts together, and partly illustrates Colossians 1:15-16:-

'And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto Him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in His Own blood,'
(Rev 1:5)​
* The nation of Israel is called the 'Firstborn' because of its exalted position:-

'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh,
Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son,
even my firstborn:'
(Exo 4:22)​

* See also Psalm 89:27 where the word has the meaning of 'superior', 'greater', 'most loved', 'exalted.

' Also I will make Him My Firstborn,
higher than the kings of the earth.'

(Psa, 89:27)​

Thank you, it has been a blessing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Subject Heading:- 'The Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation'

'Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For
by Him were all things created,
.. that are in heaven,
.... and that are in earth,
...... visible and invisible,
........ whether they be thrones,
.......... or dominions,
............ or principalities,
.............. or powers:
................ all things were created by Him,
.................. and for Him:
And He is before all things,
.. and by Him all things consist.
.... And He is the head of the body, the church:
...... Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
........ that in all things He might have the preeminence.'

(Col 1:15-18)

Hello @civic,

* The Lord Jesus Christ is said to be the, 'The Firstborn,' ( in terms of time ), in verses 15 & 18 (above). As in Romans 8:29 and Hebrews 1:6

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'

(Romans 8:29)

'And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world,
He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."'

(Heb 1:6)

* I love the stress on the word, 'firstbegotten' here in this context: where the comparison is being made between the Lord Jesus Christ and Angelic beings, for He is God's 'only begotten Son', He was not, 'created,' as they were (1 John 4:9).

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


:)
the only begotten = an only begotten [Son]. As applied to Christ it Occurs only here, Joh_1:18; Joh_3:16, Joh_3:18; 1Jn_4:9. But it is used of an earthly relationship in Luk_7:12; Luk_8:42; Luk_9:38. Heb_11:17. Septuagint for "only One", Psa_25:16. See note there.

desolate = [Thine] only One. Hebrew. yachid. See note on Deu_6:4. Septuagint = monogenes, only begotten.



Hear. In the Hebrew text this word (sham'a) has the last letter majuscular (i.e. larger than the others) as also the last letter of the last word ('echad), to emphasize "the first and great commandment" (Mat_22:38. Mar_12:29, Mar_12:30). These two letters taken together make 'ed = "a witness", because God is a witness and looketh on the heart (1Sa_16:7). In Hebrew. shem'a yisrael yeh6va elheynu yehova. echad = "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah (the Self and ever existing One), our Elohim is one Jehovah".

one. Hebrew 'ehad = a compound unity (Latin. unus), one made up of others: Gen_1:5, one of seven; Deu_2:11, one of four; Deu_2:21, one of twenty-four; Deu_2:24, one made up of two; Deu_3:22, one of the Trinity: Deu_49:16, one of twelve; Num_13:23, one of a cluster. So Psa_34:20, &c. It is not yahid, which is (Latin) unicus, unique a single, or only one, occurs twelve times: Gen_22:2, Gen_22:12, Gen_22:16. Jdg_11:34. Psa_22:20; Psa_25:16; Psa_35:17; Psa_68:6. Pro_4:3. Jer_6:26. Amo_8:10. Zec_12:10. Hebrew of all other words for "one" is 'echad.

(4-9) One of the four Phylacteries. Exo_13:1-10; Exo_13:11-16. Exo_6:4-9; Exo_11:13-21. See note on Exo_13:1, Compare the Structures of the second pair (above).


"God has sent His only begotten Son into the world"
This is a PERFECT ACTIVE INDICATIVE; the incarnation and its results remain! All of God's benefits come through Christ.

The term "only begotten" is monogenēs which implies "unique," "one of a kind," not begotten as in sexual generation.


The virgin birth was not a sexual experience for God or Mary. John uses this term several times referring to Jesus (cf. John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9). See further note at John 3:16. Jesus is God's Son in a unique (ontological) sense. Believers are God's children only in a derived sense.

"so that we might live through Him"
This is an AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE which implies a contingency, a faith response is necessary. The purpose of the incarnation was eternal life and abundant life (cf. John 10:10).

4:10 "In this is love"
God's love is clearly demonstrated in the life and death of Jesus (cf. Rom. 5:6,8). To know Jesus is to know God. To know God is to love!

"not that we loved God"
The NT is unique among the world religions. Typically religion is mankind seeking God, but Christianity is God seeking fallen mankind! The wonderful truth is not our love for God, but His love for us. He has sought us through our sin and self, our rebellion and pride. The glorious truth of Christianity is that God loves fallen mankind and has initiated and maintained a life-changing contact.

There is a variant related to the form of the VERB.

have and continue to love, PERFECT ‒ MS B
loved, AORIST ‒ MS א
The UBS4 gives the PERFECT TENSE a "B" rating (almost certain).

Praise God for his wonderful love to fallen humanity.
J.
 
In four of the five places the word is used as an adjective modifying “Son,” and in one of these (1:18) the Son is said to be “in the bosom of the Father.” In the one place where it occurs as a substantive (1:14), it is followed by the prepositional phrase “from the Father,” which implies sonship. And so we see that in every occurrence John is using the word as a biological metaphor, in which Christ is the “Only Begotten Son” of the Father.

Is there any doctrinal importance in this? Yes, there is. The biological metaphor, in which the Son (and only the Son) shares the genus of the Father, conveys the idea that Jesus Christ is a true genetic Son, having the same divine nature or essence as the Father. The meaning of the word μονογενὴς here is not just “only” or “one and only,” as in the RSV, NIV, and ESV translations. John is not saying that the Son is “one of a kind.” He is saying that Christ is the second of a kind, uniquely sharing the genus of the Father because he is the only begotten Son of the Father, as in the KJV, ERV, and NASB. In the early centuries of Christianity, this point of exegesis acquired great importance. During the fourth century a teaching known as the Arian heresy (which maintained that the Son was a created being) threatened the Church, and in response to it the orthodox Fathers emphasized that the Scripture speaks of a begetting of the Son, not a creation. On that Scriptural basis they maintained that the Son must be understood to be of the same essence as the Father (ὁμοούσιος τῷ πατρί). They further explained that when Scripture speaks of this “begetting” it refers to something taking place in eternity, not within time, and so there were never a time when the Father was without the Son. The orthodox teaching on this subject was set forth in the Creed adopted by the Council of Nicæa in A.D. 325:

Πιστευομεν εις ενα θεον πατερα παντοκρατορα, παντων ορατων τε και αορατων ποιητην. Και εις ενα κυριον Ιησουν Χριστον τον υιον του θεου, γεννθεντα εκ του πατρος μονογενη, τουτεστιν εκ της ουσιας του πατρος, θεον εκ θεου, φως εκ φωτος, θεον αληθινον εκ θεου αληθινου, γεννηθεντα, ου ποιηθεντα, ομοουσιον τω πατρι, δι ου τα παντα εγενετο, τα τε εν τω ουρανω και τα επι της γης· τον δι ημας τους ανθρωπους και δια την ημετεραν σωτηριαν κατελθοντα και σαρκωθεντα και ενανθρωπησαντα, παθοντα, και ανασταντα τη τριτη ημερα, ανελθοντα εις τους ουρανους, και ερχομενον κριναι ζωντας και νεκρους. Και εις το αγιον πνευμα. Τους δε λεγοντας, οτι ην ποτε οτε ουκ ην, και πριν γεννηθηναι ουκ ην, και οτι εξ ουκ οντων εγενετο, η εξ ετερας υποστασεως η ουσιας φασκοντας ειναι, [η κτιστον,] τρεπτον η αλλοιωτον τον υιον του θεου, [τουτους] αναθεματιζει η καθολικη [και αποστολικη] εκκλησια.We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, of one substance (ὁμοούσιον) with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. But those who say: ‘There was once when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or, ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church. 10
Athanasius in his Defence of the Nicene Definition (ca. 353), points to the word μονογενής in John 1:14 as one Scriptural proof for the teaching.

It has been shown above, and must be believed as true, that the Word is from the Father, and the only Offspring proper to Him and natural. For whence may one conceive the Son to be, who is the Wisdom and the Word, in whom all things came to be, but from God Himself? However, the Scriptures also teach us this.... John in saying, “The Only-begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him,” spoke of what He had learned from the Saviour. Besides, what else does “in the bosom” intimate, but the Son’s genuine generation from the Father? 11

The Nicene Creed was revised at the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381, and in this revised form (known as the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) it continues to be used by the Greek Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and by some Protestant churches, as a confession of faith. Most Lutherans recite this Creed during their worship services at least once a month. Even those who do not use this Creed in their liturgies generally acknowledge the correctness of its teaching. Most Protestant confessions and summaries of doctrine have incorporated its language. For instance, the Westminster Confession (used as a doctrinal standard in conservative Presbyterian churches) reflects the Nicene teaching of the eternal generation of the Son in one of its paragraphs concerning the Trinity: “In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.” (chapter 2, paragraph 3.) In this confession, a Scripture reference following the words “eternally begotten of the Father” points to John 1:14 and 1:18, as support for the doctrine.

If the word “begotten” as applied to Christ has had such importance in the history of Christian doctrine, why have some modern versions of the Bible omitted the “begotten” in their renderings of the verses quoted above?

It is because many modern scholars have rejected the interpretation of Scripture embodied in the Nicene Creed. These scholars maintain that the Nicene Creed’s interpretation of Scripture is wrong, and they argue that the traditional rendering “only begotten” represents a dogmatically-motivated misinterpretation of the Greek word μονογενής. As one Baptist scholar puts it,

The phrase “only begotten” derives directly from Jerome (340?-420 A.D.) who replaced unicus (only), the reading of the Old Latin, with unigenitus (only begotten) as he translated the Latin Vulgate. Jerome’s concern was to refute the Arian doctrine that claimed the Son was not begotten but made. This led Jerome to impose the terminology of the Nicene creed (325 A.D.) onto the New Testament. 12

This author gives the translators who have preferred “only begotten” too little credit, as if this phrase in the early English versions were merely an unthinking imitation of the Vulgate’s unigenitus, and retained in some modern versions only by the force of a verbal tradition. But the translators of the King James Version were not just imitating the Vulgate when they translated μονογενής as “only begotten.” They translated it thus because they understood it thus, in agreement with the interpretation of the word given in the Nicene Creed. And the author’s contention that Jerome imposed the terminology of the Nicene creed onto the Scriptures when he used unigenitus is unjustifiable. It is no imposition on the word to translate it thus. 13 Athanasius and the other Greek Fathers of the early fourth century did not need any Latin version to interpret this word for them, and in their disputes with the Arians they frequently explained it in the sense, “only-begotten,” with exegetical emphasis on the “begotten.” In one place Athanasius says very plainly that Christ is called “Only-begotten, because of his generation from the Father.” 14 In other places his use of the word is so connected with other words for “begetting” that it is impossible to suppose that it did not carry the meaning “only begotten.” 15 If this were not enough, modern scholarly support for this understanding of the word is certainly not lacking either. “Only-begotten” is given as a sense for μονογενής in Lust’s Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint (2nd ed., Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 2003). In the 2nd ed. of the BAGD lexicon (1979) it is said that “the meanings only, unique may be quite adequate for all its occurrences” in the Johannine literature (p. 527), but the lexicon also presents the traditional view, in which the word is understood to mean “only-begotten.” See also the article on monogenes by Büchsel in Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. 4, pp. 737-41. Büchsel concludes that in John’s Gospel the word denotes “more than the uniqueness or incomparability of Jesus,” because it also “denotes the origin of Jesus ... as the only-begotten.” For a full discussion of this matter see John V. Dahms, “The Johannine Use of Monogenes Reconsidered,” New Testament Studies 29 (1983), pp. 222-232. Dahms concludes, “the external evidence, especially from Philo, Justin, and Tertullian, and the internal evidence from the context of its occurrences, makes clear that ‘only begotten’ is the most accurate translation after all.” 16 On the popular level, the recently published Reformation Study Bible (Ligonier Ministries, 2005), edited by a panel of respected conservative scholars, includes this note on the phrase “the only Son” in John 1:14 — “This phrase translates a single Greek word and explicitly points to the eternal generation of the Son in the Trinity.” 17

The truth is, those who do not acknowledge this meaning of the word μονογενής in the Johannine writings are themselves dogmatically motivated. Their preferred translation—“only”—is an undertranslation which hides from view a Scriptural datum that supports the Christology of the ancient Creed but which happens to be unpopular with modern theologians.

There is a tendency among modern theologians to “divide the Substance” of the Godhead (cf. the warning against this in the Athanasian Creed) by positing such independence and equality of the Persons of the Trinity that we can no longer conceive of them as being one God. Some modern theologians have little use for the term ὁμοούσιος (“one essence”), and they cannot abide the idea that there is any ontological priority of the Father in the Trinity, because this is too “hierarchical” and “patriarchal” for our egalitarian age. The Son and the Spirit must be made totally equal to the Father in all respects, even if it means making them into three Gods. This trend is largely driven by liberal theologians who favor the new “social Trinity” concept (Moltmann being prominent among them), which imagines the Trinity to be like a voluntary society of persons who are not ontologically connected.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/only-begotten.html



 
C.S. Lewis on the Only-Begotten Son

from Mere Christianity

One of the creeds says that Christ is the Son of God “begotten, not created”; and it adds “begotten by his Father before all worlds.” Will you please get it quite clear that this has nothing to do with the fact that when Christ was born on earth as a man, that man was the son of a virgin? We are not now thinking about the Virgin Birth. We are thinking about something that happened before Nature was created at all, before time began. “Before all worlds” Christ is begotten, not created. What does it mean?

We don’t use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set—or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set: say, a statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.

Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God.



The word is used in both the 325 and the 381 version, but in the 381 version it was moved to a different location a few words earlier. Here are the two versions side by side, both in the original Greek and in English translation. I am only quoting the second article about the Son, and only the beginning portion of that article, up through the famous homoousion. The main verb “we believe” is to be understood from the first article.

The Creed of Nicaea (325)The Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (381)
Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, γεννηθέντα ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς μονογενῆ, τοὐτέστιν ἐκ τῆς οὐσίας τοῦ Πατρός, θεὸν ἐκ θεοῦ, φῶς ἐκ φωτός, θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ ΠατρίΚαὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων, φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, only-begotten, that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the FatherAnd in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father

What were the changes in the 381 version relative to the 325 version? One change is that the phrase “God of God” is deleted since “very God of very God” was felt to be sufficient. This is a minor stylistic edit. But the next three changes are more significant:

  • The phrase “that is, of the essence of the Father” was deleted.
  • The prepositional phrase “before all ages” was added.
  • As mentioned, “only begotten” was moved up from after “begotten of the Father” to go with the initial clause, “And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God.”
325: τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, γεννηθέντα ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς μονογενῆ
381: τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα

In 325, μονογενής is a précising term modifying the aorist passive participle γεννηθέντα, “begotten of the Father as only-begotten.” Oskar Skarsaune argued this in his helpful article, “A neglected detail in the creed of Nicaea (325),”







If anything, the Nicene Creed is a master class in rhythmic redundancy: “God of God … very God of very God” (325), and “begotten … begotten, not made” (γεννηθέντα … γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα) (325 and 381).

Corroborating this interpretation of μονογενής as “only begotten” is a very helpful contemporary document, the Epistle of Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, to Alexander, Bishop of Constantinople, dated 324, the year before the Council of Nicaea. Alexander’s reasoning against the views of his heretical presbyter Arius is a powerful, early statement of the orthodox position. He uses the term μονογενής of the Son seven times in the letter, but I will only quote three of them. In these three instances it is instructive to see how the verb γεννάω is used in collocation with “only begotten,” just as in the Nicene Creed. For example, here is a quote where he says the Father “begat the only-begotten Son”:

“… the Father is always Father. And He is Father from the continual presence of the Son, on account of whom He is called Father. And the Son being ever present with him [which Alexander had earlier proved from John 1:18, ‘the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father’], the Father is ever perfect, wanting in no good thing, for He did not beget His only-begotten Son (γεννήσας τὸν μονογενῆ υἱόν) in time, or in any interval of time, nor out of that which had no previous existence” (apud Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History 1.3; NPNF2 3.37 modified).

In the next quote, Alexander speaks of “the only-begotten nature” of the Word, who “was begotten of the self-existent Father,” which he supports with a quotation from 1 John 5:1 which also uses the perfect participle “begotten”:

“In their [referring to Arius and his followers] ignorance and want of practice in theology they do not realize how vast must be the distance between the Father who is unbegotten (ἀγεννήτος), and the creatures, whether rational or irrational, which He created out of the non-existent; and that the only-begotten nature (φύσις μονογενής) of Him who is the Word of God, by whom the Father created the universe out of the non-existent, standing, as it were, in the middle between the two, was begotten of the self-existent Father (ἐξ αὐτοῦ τοῦ ὄντος πατρὸς γεγέννηται), as the Lord Himself testified when He said, ‘Every one that loveth the Father, loveth the Son that is begotten of Him (τὸν υἱὸν τὸν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον)’ [1 John 5:1]” (NPNF2 3.39 modified).

In his quotation of 1 John 5:1, Alexander has inserted τὸν υἱόν in front of the phrase τὸν ἐξ αὐτοῦ γεγεννημένον to make clear that he takes it as a reference to the Son begotten of the Father. Modern commentators see “the one begotten of Him” as referring to the believer rather than the Son. But the point is that Alexander interprets the φύσις μονογενής (“the only-begotten nature”) of the Son as his being begotten of the Father, which sets the Son apart from things created out of the non-existent.

The third passage I want to quote where Alexander uses the word μονογενής is highly significant because it foreshadows the language of the Nicene Creed itself.

“We believe, as is taught by the apostolical Church, in an only unbegotten Father (μόνον ἀγέννητον πατέρα), who of His being hath no cause, immutable and invariable … and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten not out of that which is not, but of the Father who is (τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ μονογενῆ, γεννηθέντα οὐκ ἐκ τοῦ μὴ ὄντος ἀλλ’ ἐκ τοῦ ὄντος πατρός); yet not after the manner of material bodies, by severance or emanation … but in an inexpressible and inexplicable manner, according to the saying which we quoted above, ‘Who shall declare His generation?’ [Isa 53:8]” (NPNF2 3.39 modified).

Returning to the Creed of Nicaea, Skarsaune has argued that the similarities between Alexander’s letter and the actual text of the Creed suggest that Alexander and his circle were the ones who drafted the Creed. Since μονογενής is a Scriptural term and since it is used in John 1:18 to signify the Son’s origin as begotten from the Father, not being a creature made from the things that do not exist, it seems that this term μονογενής was specifically inserted into the Creed to provide the exegetical ground of the phrase “begotten, not made,” a key phrase in the Creed that functions as a trumpet blast against the Arians who said the Son was a creature made by God.

In the 381 version, decades later, the arrangement of words was changed somewhat, but the theology is the same. In fact, the 381 version underscores how the whole argument rests on the biblical word μονογενής. The word μονογενής is the anchor and the rest of the anti-Arian portion of the Creed is a cascade of expository phrases fleshing out what that means with ever-increasing clarity until the climactic homoousion is reached:

τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ,

τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,

φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,

γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα,

ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί

The Son’s being begotten of the Father provides the ultimate theological ground for the homoousion. Just as human fathers beget sons that are the same in substance, that is, fully human, so the divine Father begets a Son who is the same in substance with him, that is, fully divine. The intervening phrases, “Light of Light, very God of very God,” make this logic clear. All of this rich theology is anchored in the affirmation that Jesus Christ is the Father’s “only begotten” Son. By denying that that is what μονογενής means in the Nicene Creed, Giles misses an important element of the Creed’s scriptural logic.





https://upper-register.typepad.com/...fathers-a-response-to-kevin-giles-part-4.html
 
Büchsel on μονογενής

The following article by Hermann Martin Friedrich Büchsel on the meaning of the word μονογενής is reproduced from vol. 4 of Theological Dictionary of the New Testament edited by Gerhard Kittel, English edition (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967), pp. 737-41. I omit all but one of the article's twenty footnotes: no. 14, dealing with the text-critical issue in John 1:18.



μονογενής

A. Usage outside the New Testament.

The word does not occur in Homer but is attested from the time of Hesiod. In compounds like διο-γενής, ευ-γενής, συγ-γενής the -γενής suggests derivation (γενος) rather than birth. Nouns as the first part of the compound give the source, e.g., from Zeus, the earth. Adverbs describe the nature of the derivation, e.g., noble or common. μονογενής is to be explained along the lines of ευγενής rather than διο-γενής. The μον- does not denote the source but the nature of derivation. Hence μονογενής means "of sole descent," i.e., without brothers or sisters. This gives us the sense of only-begotten. The ref. is to the only child of one's parents, primarily in relation to them. μονογενής is stronger than μονος, for it denotes that they have never had more than this child. But the word can also be used more generally without ref. to derivation in the sense of "unique," "unparalleled," "incomparable," though one should not confuse the refs. to class or species and to manner.

The LXX uses μονογενής for יָחִיד, e.g., Ju. 11:34, where it means the only child; cf. also Tob. 3:15; 6:11 (BA), 15 (S); 8:17; Bar. 4:16 vl. This rendering is also found in Ps. 21:20; 34:17, where יְחִידָתִי is par. to נַפְשִׁי and the ref. is to the uniqueness of the soul. The transl. is possible on the basis of the general use of μονογενής for "unique," "unparalleled," "incomparable."

The LXX also renders יָחִיד by αγαπητος, Gn. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; Am. 8:10; Zech. 12:10. Hence the question arises how far μονογενής has the sense of "beloved." Undoubtedly an only child is particularly dear to his parents. One might also say that the ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός of Mk. 1:11; Mt. 3:17; Lk. 3:22 and Mk. 9:7; Mt. 17:5 is materially close to the ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός of Jn., esp. as the Messianic Son of God is unique and without par. as such. But there is a distinction between the ἀγαπητός and μονογενής. It is a mistake to subsume the meaning of the latter under that of the former. μονογενής is not just a predicate of value. If the LXX has different terms for יָחִיד, this is perhaps because different translators were at work. Philo calls the λόγος, not μονογενής but πρωτογονος, Conf. Ling., 146, etc. μονογενής is not a significant word for him. Joseph. has μονογενής in the usual sense of "only born." There is a striking use of μονογενής in Ps.Sol. 18:4 : "Thy chastisement comes upon us (in love) as the first born and the only begotten son." With this may be compared 4 Esr. 6:58 : "But we, thy people, whom thou hast called the first born, the only begotten, the dearest friend, are given up into their hands." After πρωτοτοκος (Ex. 4:22) μονογενής denotes an intensifying. It is most unlikely that the sense here is simply that of ἀγαπητός.

B. The Use in the New Testament.

1. In the NT μονογενής occurs only in Lk., Jn. and Hb., not Mk., Mt. or Pl. It is thus found only in later writings. It means "only-begotten." Thus in Hb. Isaac is the μονογενής of Abraham (11:17), in Lk. the dead man raised up again at Nain is the only son of his mother (7:12), the daughter of Jairus is the only child (8:42), and the demoniac boy is the only son of his father (9:38).

2. Only Jn. uses μονογενής to describe the relation of Jesus to God. Mk. and Mt. have ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός; Pl. uses τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱὸν at R. 8:3, τοῦ ἰδίου υἱοῦ at R. 8:32, and πρωτότοκος at R. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18, but not μονογενής. The further step taken by Jn. to describe Jesus corresponds to the fact that believers who as children of God are called υἱοὶ θεοῦ — the same word as is applied to Jesus — in Mt., Pl. etc., are always called τέκνα θεοῦ in Jn., 1:12; 11:52; 1 Jn. 3:1, 2, 10; 5:2, while υἱός is reserved for Jesus. Jn. emphasizes more strongly the distinction between Jesus and believers and the uniqueness of Jesus in His divine sonship. It is not that Jesus is not unique in this sonship for Mt., Pl. etc. also. His Messiahship proves this. But Jn. puts it in an illuminating and easily remembered formula which was taken up into the baptismal confession and which ever since has formed an inalienable part of the creed of the Church. To μονογενής as a designation of Jesus corresponds the fact that God is the πατὴρ ἴδιος of Jesus, Jn. 5:18; for ἴδιος means to be in a special relation to Jesus which excludes the same relation to others.

μονογενής occurs in Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9. What is meant is plainest in Jn. 3:16 and I Jn. 4:9. Because Jesus is the only Son of God, His sending into the world is the supreme proof of God's love for the world. On the other side, it is only as the only-begotten Son of God that Jesus can mediate life and salvation from perdition. For life is given only in Him, Jn. 5:26. But the fact that He is the only-begotten Son means also that men are obligated to believe in Him, and that they come under judgment, indeed, have done so already, if they withhold faith from Him, 3:18. μονογενής is thus a predicate of majesty. This is true in Jn. 1:18. Here we are to read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. (14) As the only-begotten Son Jesus is in the closest intimacy with God. There is no other with whom God can have similar fellowship. He shares everything with this Son. For this reason Jesus can give what no man can give, namely, the fullest possible eye-witness account of God. He knows God, not just from hearsay, but from incomparably close intercourse with Him. In 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9; 1:18 the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father. Similarly in Jn. 1:14: δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, His glory is not just compared with that of an only child; it is described as that of the only-begotten Son. Grammatically both interpretations are justifiable. But the total usage of μονογενής is very emphatically against taking ὡς μονογενοῦς as a mere comparison.

In Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9 μονογενής denotes more than the uniqueness or incomparability of Jesus. In all these verses He is expressly called the Son, and He is regarded as such in 1:14. In Jn. μονογενής denotes the origin of Jesus. He is μονογενής as the only-begotten.

What Jn. means by ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός in detail can be known in its full import only in the light of the whole of John's proclamation. For ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός is simply a special form of ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ. When Jn. speaks of the Son of God, he has primarily in view the man Jesus Christ, though not exclusively the man, but also the risen and pre-existent Lord. The relation of the pre-existent Lord to God is that of Son to Father. This comes out indisputably in 17:5, 24. Jesus is aware that He was with God, and was loved by Him, and endued with glory, before the foundation of the world. This is personal fellowship with God, divine sonship. It is true that neither In the prologue, nor 8:58, nor c. 17 does Jn. use the term "son" for the pre-existent Lord. But He describes His relation to God as that of a son. To maintain that in Jn. the pre-existent Lord is only the Word, and that the Son is only the historical and risen Lord, is to draw too sharp a line between the pre-existence on the one side and the historical and post-historical life on the other. In Jn. the Lord is always the Son. Because He alone was God's Son before the foundation of the world, because the whole love of the Father is for Him alone, because He alone is one with God, because the title God may be ascribed to Him alone, He is the only-begotten Son of God.

It is not wholly clear whether μονογενής in Jn. denotes also the birth or begetting from God; it probably does, Jn. calls Jesus ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ, 1 Jn. 5:18. Though many will not accept this, he here understands the concept of sonship in terms of begetting. For him to be the Son of God is not just to be the recipient of God's love. It is to be begotten of God. This is true both of believers and also of Jesus. For this reason μονογενής probably includes also begetting by God. To be sure, Jn. does not lift the veil of mystery which lies over the eternal begetting. But this does not entitle us to assume that he had no awareness of it. Johannine preaching and doctrine is designed to awaken faith, 20:30 f., not to give full and systematic knowledge. Hence it does not have to dispel all mysteries.
 
Berkhof on the Eternal Generation of the Son
Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, 1949), pp. 93-94.


The eternal generation of the Son. The personal property of the Son is that He is eternally begotten of the Father (briefly called "filiation"), and shares with the father in the spiration of the Spirit. The doctrine of the generation of the Son is suggested by the Biblical representation of the first and second persons of the Trinity as standing in the relation of Father and Son to each other. Not only do the names "Father" and "Son" suggest the generation of the latter by the former, but the Son is also repeatedly called "the only-begotten," John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb. 11:17; 1 John 4:9. Several particulars deserve emphasis in connection with the generation of the Son: (1) It is a necessary act of God. Origen, one of the very first to speak of the generation of the Son, regarded it as an act dependent on the Father's will and therefore free. Others at various times expressed the same opinion. But it was clearly seen by Athanasius and others that a generation dependent on the optional will of the Father would make the existence of the Son contingent and thus rob Him of His deity. Then the Son would not be equal to and homoousios [of the same essence] with the Father, for the Father exists necessarily, and cannot be conceived of as non-existent. The generation of the Son must be regarded as a necessary and perfectly natural act of God. This does not mean that it is not related to the Father's will in any sense of the word. It is an act of the Father's necessary will, which merely means that His concomitant will takes perfect delight in it. (2) It is an eternal act of the Father. This naturally follows from the preceding. If the generation of the Son is a necessary act of the Father, so that it is impossible to conceive of Him as not generating, it naturally shares in the eternity of the Father. This does not mean, however, that it is an act that was completed in the far distant past, but rather that it is a timeless act, the act of an eternal present, an act always continuing and yet ever completed. Its eternity follows not only from the eternity of God, but also from the divine immutability and from the true deity of the Son. In addition to this it can be inferred from all those passages of Scripture which teach either the pre-existence of the Son or His equality with the Father, Mic. 5:2; John 1:14, 18; 3:16; 5:17, 18, 30, 36; Acts 13:33; John 17:5; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:3. The statement of Ps. 2:7, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee," is generally quoted to prove the generation of the Son, but, according to some, with rather doubtful propriety, cf. Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5. They surmise that these words refer to the raising up of Jesus as Messianic King, and to the recognition of Him as Son of God in an official sense, and should probably be linked with the promise found in II Sam. 7:14, just as they are in Heb. 1:5. (3) It is a generation of the personal subsistence rather than of the divine essence of the Son. Some have spoken as if the Father generated the essence of the Son, but this is equivalent to saying that He generated His own essence, for the essence of both the Father and the Son is exactly the same. It is better to say that the Father generates the personal subsistence of the Son, but thereby also communicates to Him the divine essence in its entirety. But in doing this we should guard against the idea that the Father first generated a second person, and then communicated the divine essence to this person, for that would lead to the conclusion that the Son was not generated out of the divine essence, but created out of nothing. In the work of generation there was a communication of essence; it was one indivisible act. And in virtue of this communication the Son also has life in Himself. This is in agreement with the statement of Jesus, "For as the Father hath life in Himself, even so gave He to the Son also to have life in Himself," John 5:26. (4) It is a generation that must be conceived of as spiritual and divine. In opposition to the Arians, who insisted that the generation of the Son necessarily implied separation or division in the divine Being, the Church Fathers stressed the fact that this generation must not be conceived in a physical and creaturely way, but should be regarded as spiritual and divine, excluding all idea of division or change. It brings distinctio and distributio, but no diversitas and divisio in the divine Being. (Bavinck) The most striking analogy of it is found in man's thinking and speaking, and the Bible itself seems to point to this, when it speaks of the Son as the Logos. (5) The following definition may be given of the generation of the Son: It is that eternal and necessary act of the first person in the Trinity, whereby He, within the divine Being, is the ground of a second personal subsistence like HIs own, and puts this second person in possession of the whole divine essence, without any division, alienation, or change.

Man! Learning a lot from you @civic!
Be careful-Rocky is back!
J.
 
They think they will be heard for their many words. They won‘t be.

They think they will drown out those who disagree with them by burying them with massive posts. They will.
 
Hello @Matthias, :)

The title, 'The firstborn of every creature', should not be misunderstood. It does not mean that Christ was the first of all created things; the explanation that follows forbids it - 'for by Him were all things created. It cannot mean, that, before this, He had no existence, for this reasoning would lead to an impossible conclusion if applied to the parallel title - 'the Firstborn from the dead'. The title is one of dignity - 'That in all things He might have pre-eminence'.

* Speaking of the resurrection, Psalm 2:7 records: 'Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee'. This cannot possibly mean that Christ was not the Son of God before His resurrection, or that He had no existence prior to resurrection. Revelation 1:5 brings the two thoughts together, and partly illustrates Colossians 1:15-16:-

'And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto Him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in His Own blood,'
(Rev 1:5)​
* The nation of Israel is called the 'Firstborn' because of its exalted position:-

'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh,
Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son,
even my firstborn:'
(Exo 4:22)​

* See also Psalm 89:27 where the word has the meaning of 'superior', 'greater', 'most loved', 'exalted.

' Also I will make Him My Firstborn,
higher than the kings of the earth.'
(Psa, 89:27)​

Thank you, it has been a blessing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Your post was long - and I don’t usually read or respond to posts of that length - but your gentle spirit made yours an exception.

I agree with well over 90% of what you wrote. Thanks for your excellent post. Length aside, I hope that it might serve as an example to others. I thought it was outstanding.
 
They think they will be heard for their many words. They won‘t be.

They think they will drown out those who disagree with them by burying them with massive posts. They will.
It was only a matter of time-and here we are.
If you disagree with me, I have no problem with that brother-and if I should disagree with you-that should not be a problem with you-right?

After all-there is a gospel to be promulgated and I make full use of my precious time-redeeming the time since the days are evil and short.

We are here for each other, not against one another-our warfare is NOT against flesh and blood-right?

Shalom Achi.
J.
 
It was only a matter of time-and here we are.

You’re as right as rain about that.

Unlike the other forum we’re currently on together, this forum allows me to be what I am.

If you disagree with me, I have no problem with that brother-and if I should disagree with you-that should not be a problem with you-right?

Yes, that’s right.

After all-there is a gospel to be promulgated and I make full use of my precious time-redeeming the time since the days are evil and short.

We are here for each other, not against one another-our warfare is NOT against flesh and blood-right?

Shalom Achi.
J.

This forum is a little different. While discussion is allowed, this isn’t a typical discussion forum. This is an apologetics forum. The owner is the home team and the home team is always right. There may be nuances, but the home team won the ballgame before the whistle blew to start play.
 
This forum is a little different. While discussion is allowed, this isn’t a typical discussion forum. This is an apologetics forum. The owner is the home team and the home team is always right. There may be nuances, but the home team won the ballgame before the whistle blew to start play.
Well, so far I have been given grace and freedom to promulgate the D'varim of YHVH, from the "home team"

Reconciliation and chesed goes a long way brother-my apologies if my posts are a bit too lengthy.
Shalom @Matthias
J.
 
It was only a matter of time-and here we are.
If you disagree with me, I have no problem with that brother-and if I should disagree with you-that should not be a problem with you-right?

After all-there is a gospel to be promulgated and I make full use of my precious time-redeeming the time since the days are evil and short.

We are here for each other, not against one another-our warfare is NOT against flesh and blood-right?

Shalom Achi.
J.
if you post more than a sentence or paragraph watch out. I wonder what some do with 66 books called the Bible lol.

and why have systematic theology books or any books longer than a paragraph for that matter.

Instead of complaining they can just ignore the post and move on and problem solved.
 
Well, so far I have been given grace and freedom to promulgate the D'varim of YHVH, from the "home team"

Reconciliation and chesed goes a long way brother-my apologies if my posts are a bit too lengthy.
Shalom @Matthias
J.

Well said.

The dead giveaway is whether or not people who post large messages - not to mention stacking them on top of one another before anyone else can get a word in edgewise - speak that way to others in person.

That’s not a conversation; that’s a lecture.

“A lecture is a one way street, baby.” - Kojak
 
Well said.

The dead giveaway is whether or not people who post large messages - not to mention stacking them on top of one another before anyone else can get a word in edgewise - speak that way to others in person.

That’s not a conversation; that’s a lecture.

“A lecture is a one way street, baby.” - Kojak
Not going to lie to you, I am ever learning from these lectures, and it is helping me to hone my discernment-here where I am people will give an arm or a leg to learn what I am learning here brother.

Do I agree with everything? Of course not, but there are golden nuggets everywhere.
J.
 
Well said.

The dead giveaway is whether or not people who post large messages - not to mention stacking them on top of one another before anyone else can get a word in edgewise - speak that way to others in person.

That’s not a conversation; that’s a lecture.

“A lecture is a one way street, baby.” - Kojak
so is being a preacher so I guess you don't listen to sermons either since its a monologue not a dialogue right.
 
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15
John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5

“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


hope this helps !!!
This still has not been refuted and stands as the truth. No wonder its being avoided like the plague.
 
Not going to lie to you, I am ever learning from these lectures, and it is helping me to hone my discernment-here where I am people will give an arm or a leg to learn what I am learning here brother.

There’s nothing wrong with that. If you find them profitable, I would encourage you to continue listening to them.

I’ve read more trinitarian authors and attended more trinitarian lectures than most trinitarians I’ve met at this level. I’ve asked a few trinitarian members of this forum if they have something to share which I haven’t seen before. They haven’t very often, but I appreciate the few that they have.

Do I agree with everything? Of course not, but there are golden nuggets everywhere.
J.

I‘ve found much that I’m able to agree with in the writings of trinitarian scholars.

I’m sure you must have heard me say this before but, on the off chance that you haven’t, I’ll repeat it here.

Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically.
 
Back
Top Bottom