Pre Existence of Christ prior to the Incarnation

[civic]

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

 

[civic]

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

 

[e v e]

my understanding is that before coming to this earth,
Christ was just as He is now in His resurrection body.....
at resurrection He was restored in His eden nature and that IS His Nature,
just as the sons will have the same type of body
... all the sons who He made possible to save...
and who will rule with Him....
once restored at the Change Paul describes

all His creation has His signature upon it...
which is how one can know that this earth is not His ...

and, as Christ Himself said, He is not from here.

 

[civic]

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence. Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing or person rather you are like that thing or person . This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory that the Son shared equally alongside the Father before creation.

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

@civic,
here's one to ponder. Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

"My Lord" is Christ. Matthew 22:41 "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them," Matthew 22:42 "Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David." Matthew 22:43 "He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying," Matthew 22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Matthew 22:45 "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" Matthew 22:46 "And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

this is a direct quote from Psalms 110:1 right. ........ well let's see who the "My Lord " is? Genesis 18:1 "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;" Genesis 18:2 "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground," Genesis 18:3 "And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:" Genesis 18:4 "Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:"

"My Lord?' ..... but was it not the "LORD", all caps who appeared? now, one thing, some might say well it was three who appeared, and just one was the "LORD". well verse 4 clearly states by saying "YOU" and 'your" indicate only "ONE" person who is "LORD", and "My Lord". so my Lord in Psalms 110:1 is the "LORD", just as Psalms 110:5, and here Genesis 18:1-3, clearly states..

101G.

 

[e v e]

@civic,
here's one to ponder. Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

"My Lord" is Christ. Matthew 22:41 "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them," Matthew 22:42 "Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David." Matthew 22:43 "He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying," Matthew 22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Matthew 22:45 "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" Matthew 22:46 "And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

this is a direct quote from Psalms 110:1 right. ........ well let's see who the "My Lord " is? Genesis 18:1 "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;" Genesis 18:2 "And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground," Genesis 18:3 "And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:" Genesis 18:4 "Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:"

"My Lord?' ..... but was it not the "LORD", all caps who appeared? now, one thing, some might say well it was three who appeared, and just one was the "LORD". well verse 4 clearly states by saying "YOU" and 'your" indicate only "ONE" person who is "LORD", and "My Lord". so my Lord in Psalms 110:1 is the "LORD", just as Psalms 110:5, and here Genesis 18:1-3, clearly states..

101G.

it is easier to just say Christ and God's Spirit are Attributes of God and are His Hands...
and they are One...

And all the sons when restored to His type of nature, which is of Paradise
- not the type of nature of this fallen matrix - will rule with Christ...

 

[civic]

it is easier to just say Christ and God's Spirit are Attributes of God and are His Hands...
and they are one...

And all the sons when restored to His type of nature, which is of Paradise
- not the type of nature of this fallen matrix -will rule with Christ...

I have no problem with your views and I understand how is can be or sound confusing at times.

 

[101G]

it is easier to just say Christ and God's Spirit are Attributes of God and are His Hands...
and they are one...

there is only one Spirit, meaning it's only one "PERSON" in the ECHAD, or diversified nature of God.

101G.

 

[101G]

@e v e,
if 101G was EQUALLY Shared how many person, or Persons is 101G?

101G.

 

[Matthias]

Literal preexistence works with trinitarian, binitarian and some unitarian theologies. It doesn’t work with Jewish monotheism

 

[101G]

Literal preexistence works with trinitarian, binitarian and some unitarian theologies. It doesn’t work with Jewish monotheism

preexistence? how?

101G.

 

[Matthias]

preexistence? how?

101G.

Preexistence in Jewish monotheism is ideal, not literal.

If I’m not banned, I’ll post about it later.

 

[civic]

Preexistence in Jewish monotheism is ideal, not literal.

If I’m not banned, I’ll post about it later.

Post about it you should be fine.

 

[Matthias]

Post about it you should be fine.

I’ve asked an administrator to ban me - temporarily or forever - rather than close someone else’s thread that I posted in.

I don’t have time to post about it now. I will later, if I’m still here.

On another note.

Are you a moderator? Who are the moderators on this forum? All of the forums that I’ve been on since the mid ‘90s have clearly identified who the moderators are. This forum may do that too, but if it does I haven’t seen it yet. If it doesn’t, I would like to suggest that it be done.

 

[101G]

Preexistence in Jewish monotheism is ideal, not literal.

If I’m not banned, I’ll post about it later.

please put an @101G so I may get it ... ok.

101G.

 

[civic]

I’ve asked an administrator to ban me - temporarily or forever - rather than close someone else’s thread that I posted in.

I don’t have time to post about it now. I will later, if I’m still here.

On another note.

Are you a moderator? Who are the moderators on this forum? All of the forums that I’ve been on since the mid ‘90s have clearly identified who the moderators are. This forum may do that too, but if it does I haven’t seen it yet. If it doesn’t, I would like to suggest that it be done.

Its my forum and the moderators moderate. I'm not a moderator. We have the Administrator and Predestined.

And there is no need to ban you. You don't have to post here if you don't want to that is entirely up to you. But I do not want to see you go. I enjoy having unitarians and other non trinitarians on the forum. I'm secure in my faith and don't mind being challenged. Thats what apologetics is all about and its what I personally enjoy doing the most online and in person.

 

[Matthias]

Its my forum and the moderators moderate. I'm not a moderator. We have the Administrator and Predestined.

And there is no need to ban you. You don't have to post here if you don't want to that is entirely up to you. But I do not want to see you go. I enjoy having unitarians and other non trinitarians on the forum. I'm secure in my faith and don't mind being challenged. Thats what apologetics is all about and its what I personally enjoy doing the most online and in person.

Who are the moderators? I was contacted publicly by @Predestined. I responded to him publicly.

Are they the only two moderators here?

 

[civic]

Who are the moderators? I was contacted publicly by @Predestined. I responded to him publicly.

Are they the only two moderators here?

There are 2.

 

[Matthias]

There are 2.

Who are they?