Pauls use of Predestination

I have not decided. I go back and forth


Supralapsarianism

First, the supralapsarian scheme. According to this view, God in order to manifest his grace and justice selected from creatable men (i.e., from men to be created) a certain number to be vessels of mercy, and certain others to be vessels of wrath. In the order of thought, election and reprobation precede the purpose to create and to permit the fall. Creation is in order to redemption. God creates some to be saved, and others to be lost.
This scheme is called supralapsarian because it supposes that men as unfallen, or before the fall, are the objects of election to eternal life, and foreordination to eternal death. This view was introduced among a certain class of Augustinians even before the Reformation, but has not been generally received. Augustine himself, and after him the great body of those who adopt his system of doctrine, were, and are, infralapsarians. That is, they hold that it is from the mass of fallen men that some were elected to eternal life, and some for the just punishment of their sins, foreordained to eternal death. The position of Calvin himself as to this point has been disputed. As it was not in his day a special matter of discussion, certain passages may be quoted from his writings which favour the supralapsarian and other passages which favour the infralapsarian view. In the “Consensus Genevensis,” written by him, there is an explicit assertion of the infralapsarian doctrine. After saying that there was little benefit in speculating on the foreordination of the fall of man, he adds, “Quod ex damnata Adæ sobole Deus quos visum est eligit, quos vult reprobat, sicuti ad fidem exercendam longe aptior est, ita majore fructu tractatur.” In the “Formula Consensus Helvetica,” drawn up as the testimony of the Swiss churches in 1675, whose principal authors were Heidegger and Turrettin, there is a formal repudiation of the supralapsarian view. In the Synod of Dort, which embraced delegates from all the Reformed churches on the Continent and in Great Britain, a large majority of the members were infralapsarians, Gomarus and Voetius being the prominent advocates of the opposite view. The canons of that synod, while avoiding any extreme statements, were so framed as to give a symbolical authority to the infralapsarian doctrine. They say: “Cum omnes homines in Adamo peccaverint et rei sint facti maledictionis et mortis æternæ, Deus nemini fecisset injuriam, si universum genus humanum in peccato et maledictione relinquere, ac propter peccatum damnare voluisset.” The same remark applies to the Westminster Assembly. Twiss, the Prolocutor of that venerable body, was a zealous supralapsarian; the great majority of its members, however, were on the other side. The symbols of that Assembly, while they clearly imply the infralapsarian view, were yet so framed as to avoid offence to those who adopted the supralapsarian theory. In the “Westminster Confession,” it is said that God appointed the elect unto eternal life, and “the rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.” It is here taught that those whom God passes by are “the rest of mankind;” not the rest of ideal or possible men, but the rest of those human beings who constitute mankind, or the human race. In the second place, the passage quoted teaches that the non-elect are passed by and ordained to wrath “for their sin.” This implies that they were contemplated as sinful before this foreordination to judgment. The infralapsarian view is still more obviously assumed in the answers to the 19th and 20th questions in the “Shorter Catechism.” It is there taught that all mankind by the fall lost communion with God, and are under his wrath and curse, and that God out of his mere good pleasure elected some (some of those under his wrath and curse), unto everlasting life. Such has been the doctrine of the great body of Augustinians from the time of Augustine to the present day.


Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 316–317.
 
So God created an inferior product because it had the ability to sin against Him. Did Adam also have the inclination to sin?
Adam had the capacity to choose to sin, but not the propensity toward sin.

Man was created to be precisely what God intended him to be. Scripture says creation as a whole was, after the creation of man, very good- an upgrade from the previous five pronouncements of “it was good”. Man was hardly “an inferior product.”


Doug
 
So God created an inferior product because it had the ability to sin against Him. Did Adam also have the inclination to sin?
ImCo,
at our creation nobody was created inferior to any other created being but all were created with free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put their faith in GOD or to deny HIS claims.

As a created being our nature as inferior to GOD does not indicate a fallen or sinful nature as some preach...GOD is light and cannot create darkness from HIMself.
 
Adam had the capacity to choose to sin, but not the propensity toward sin.

Man was created to be precisely what God intended him to be. Scripture says creation as a whole was, after the creation of man, very good- an upgrade from the previous five pronouncements of “it was good”. Man was hardly “an inferior product.”


Doug
Yep

Genesis 1:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Guess he does not believe scripture
 
So God created an inferior product because it had the ability to sin against Him.
You watch what you're calling inferior. Out of the God who is LOVE could only come out of him beings which reflect only what LOVE can do, that is have beings which have liberty. No liberty then there is no LOVE. You're advocating a character for God which is foreign to him in every way.
 
You watch what you're calling inferior. Out of the God who is LOVE could only come out of him beings which reflect only what LOVE can do, that is have beings which have liberty. No liberty then there is no LOVE. You're advocating a character for God which is foreign to him in every way.
Calvinism misrepresents the character of God
 
That was of course according to his doctrine not mine
Accepting that YHWH really is holy and cannot, will never, create that which HE abhors, that is, dark, sin or evil, by any means whatsoever is a most important beginning of true doctrine. Reconciling that with how we become sinners as men is the keyhole that allows the door to understanding to be locked or unlocked...
 
Was sin purposely allowed to enter creation? Was it part of God's creative purposes?
ImCo,
GOD created others with whom HE could share the love, fellowship and communion of the Trinity, others who would enter HIS family by marriage as HIS Bride.

Since no true love, true marriage, or true communion can exist if it is forced upon someone without their acceptance of it, it was necessary that all of HIS creation be created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to become HIS Bride. A free will in this situation meant that no one was forced by anything in their creation that would coerce them to accept or to reject HIS claims to be our GOD wanting a holy marriage with us.

This also necessitated that HIS creation had the ability and opportunity to reject HIS heavenly marriage as a lie, to rebuke HIM as a false god and able to repudiate HIM as a proper husband. They rebuked and denied HIM by their own will, not by HIS will in any manner whatsoever.

So, while HE did not create evil as part of HIS purpose for us, HE did have to allow it to be able to be created by HIS creation so HIS purpose for us, the heavenly marriage, could be real.
 
ImCo,
GOD created others with whom HE could share the love, fellowship and communion of the Trinity, others who would enter HIS family by marriage as HIS Bride.

Since no true love, true marriage, or true communion can exist if it is forced upon someone without their acceptance of it, it was necessary that all of HIS creation be created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to become HIS Bride. A free will in this situation meant that no one was forced by anything in their creation that would coerce them to accept or to reject HIS claims to be our GOD wanting a holy marriage with us.

This also necessitated that HIS creation had the ability and opportunity to reject HIS heavenly marriage as a lie, to rebuke HIM as a false god and able to repudiate HIM as a proper husband. They rebuked and denied HIM by their own will, not by HIS will in any manner whatsoever.

So, while HE did not create evil as part of HIS purpose for us, HE did have to allow it to be able to be created by HIS creation so HIS purpose for us, the heavenly marriage, could be real.
Evil is created by His creation? So Christ did not create all things then. Did man create it ex nihlo like Christ did?
 
You watch what you're calling inferior. Out of the God who is LOVE could only come out of him beings which reflect only what LOVE can do, that is have beings which have liberty. No liberty then there is no LOVE. You're advocating a character for God which is foreign to him in every way.
Yep 👍
 
Evil is created by His creation? So Christ did not create all things then. Did man create it ex nihlo like Christ did?
Only the gods of paganism create evil. God is Good, not evil nor responsible for it nor created it. Everything God created was Good. Read Genesis 1 creation account. Evil is a result of sin. God did not create sin either only in the eyes of paganism is that believed. Woe to those who call good evil and evil good.
 
Only the gods of paganism create evil. God is Good, not evil nor responsible for it nor created it. Everything God created was Good. Read Genesis 1 creation account. Evil is a result of sin. God did not create sin either only in the eyes of paganism is that believed. Woe to those who call good evil and evil good.
Fails to address my point. Christ created all things. Man creates nothing ex nihlo.
 
Evil is created by His creation? So Christ did not create all things then. Did man create it ex nihlo like Christ did?
Yes

Romans 5:12 (UASV) — 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned,
 
Evil is created by His creation? So Christ did not create all things then. Did man create it ex nihlo like Christ did?
Extension ad absurdum and a straw man...

IF listening to GOD's proclamation to every creature ever created, Col 1:23, about HIS Divinity and about HIS gospel of salvation from the natural and legal consequences of choosing to be sinful in HIS sight land then choosing to repudiate that proclamation as the lies of a false god is the ex nihilo creation of evil...then so be it.

THe interpretation that Christ made all things so He must have made evil is a gnostic interpretation and, if reports are true, held most strongly by advanced Masons.
 
So if I came up and slapped your face and gave you a kick in the behind and I said God must have made me do it what would you say? Would it be, "Oh yes I'm sure! God did create all things?"
Yep the god of Calvinism controls everything including evil, sin. It’s all ordained by his will. Just the opposite of the God of scripture.
 
So if I came up and slapped your face and gave you a kick in the behind and I said God must have made me do it what would you say? Would it be, "Oh yes I'm sure! God did create all things?"

Yep the god of Calvinism controls everything including evil, sin. It’s all ordained by his will. Just the opposite of the God of scripture.

They might pretend they're Joseph and end up being "king" of something that perishes.........
 
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