Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Studyman]

NO. No cigar.

The Lord God refers to the sovereign deity in the Bible, often identified as Yahweh or Jehovah, who is the creator and ruler of the universe. In the context of Isaiah 48:16, it signifies God's authority and presence in sending a messenger, often interpreted as a prophet or the Messiah.

In this passage, "me" refers to Isaiah in Isaiah 48:16,.

While this In this passage, has been interpreted as a prophet or a figure representing God's message, as possibly alluding to the Messiah. It is also often interpreted by Christians as alluding to the Messiah, suggesting a divine speaker (Isaiah) who is sent by God and His Spirit, indicating a plurality within the Godhead.

But before you jump up and down and think "I got you" or "Here is proof", because interpretations vary ... some, likely many, argue that it does not explicitly refer to the Messiah but rather emphasizes God's authority and presence.

I don't play the "Gotcha games" popular with many on this forum. I prefer to look at what is written, and then examine it to see what God wants me to glean from it.

The verse emphasizes that this speaker has been sent by the Lord God and His Spirit to deliver a message.

So can you show me where the Jesus "of the Bible", the Prophesied Messiah, didn't "emphasize God's authority and presence"?

"Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows".

How is this not the Spirit of Christ on David "emphasizing His God's authority and presence"?

Perhaps AI told you, or "gotquestions" taught you that the Spirit who was sent to show Israel in the way that he should go, was "Isaiah". But when a person actually reads the entire Chapter, it becomes clear that "Isaiah" wasn't the "I am".

Is. 48: 1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. 2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

3 "I have declared" the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of "my mouth", and I shewed them; "I did them" suddenly, and they came to pass.

4 "Because I knew" that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5 "I have" even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass "I shewed it thee": lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? "I have shewed thee" new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, "I knew them".

8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: "for I knew" that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9 For "my name's" sake will "I defer" mine anger, and "for my praise" will "I refrain" for thee, that "I cut thee" not off.

10 Behold, "I have refined thee", but not with silver; "I have" chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11 For "mine own sake", even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and "I will not" give my glory unto another.

12 Hearken "unto me", O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13 "Mine hand" also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and "my right hand" hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? "The LORD" hath loved him: "he will do" his pleasure on Babylon, and "his arm" shall be on the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and "he shall make" his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; "I have not spoken in secret" from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, "hath sent me".

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; "I am the LORD" thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

I don't believe it was God's intention when HE inspired these Words that I would teach others that "Isaiah" was sent to be my Redeemer. I am happy to discuss what is actually written though, if you like.

Even Paul understood this. "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:and "that (Spiritual) Rock was Christ".

Is HE not the Light of this world that God sent? "Let there be Light"! Did Abraham not rejoice to "See His day", and Saw it and was glad? Where was the Light before God sent it?

Are you teaching that there was NO LIGHT before John the Baptist?

Ex. 10: 22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: 23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel "had light in their dwellings."

How can you say that this wasn't the "Light of God" who God sent into the World?

 

[FreeInChrist]

I mean, in other threads this was already discussed.

But the point remains of how someone can be the Messiah, Head of the church, the Lord Christ and not be God.

That is having God's power. If He isn't God by your reckoning, then you've got some kind of polytheistic beliefs.

Plus.... he could bleed.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don't play the "Gotcha games" popular with many on this forum. I prefer to look at what is written, and then examine it to see what God wants me to glean from it.



So can you show me where the Jesus "of the Bible", the Prophesied Messiah, didn't "emphasize God's authority and presence"?

The verse. We were talking about one specific verse and now you deviate from it.

The verse emphasizes that this speaker has been sent by the Lord God and His Spirit to deliver a message.

The verse was about how Isaiah had been sent by the Lord YHWH and the Holy Spirit to deliver a message.

There is not one suggestion in this verse what the message is. It is assumed by some to be about the messiah but there is no clear indication in this verse it is assumed.

You dont want to play games. Quit ignoring the words you see and trying to put a spin on them that is not there in this case.
Your reading leaves a lot to be desired.... There is nothing in the entire chapter that suggests or even hints at the prophesied Messiah

And... What does this mean?

So can you show me where the Jesus "of the Bible", the Prophesied Messiah, didn't "emphasize God's authority and presence"?

Certainly God's authority and presence ia=s all over the chapter but not because of the prophesied Messiah.

First of all, as the Son he could not or would not have been responsible for emphasizing anything of the Father's authority.
He merely would confirm. So this make zero sense at least to my comprehension.

Read Isaiah 48 and then you tell me where in these 22 verses that the messiah is invoked.
READ
Isaiah 48 :

Israel's Stubbornness

1Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Israel Promised Deliverance

12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

20Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

21And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.

22There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

"Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows".

How is this not the Spirit of Christ on David "emphasizing His God's authority and presence"?

Perhaps AI told you, or "gotquestions" taught you that the Spirit who was sent to show Israel in the way that he should go, was "Isaiah". But when a person actually reads the entire Chapter, it becomes clear that "Isaiah" wasn't the "I am".

Is. 48: 1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. 2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

3 "I have declared" the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of "my mouth", and I shewed them; "I did them" suddenly, and they came to pass.

4 "Because I knew" that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5 "I have" even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass "I shewed it thee": lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? "I have shewed thee" new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, "I knew them".

8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: "for I knew" that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9 For "my name's" sake will "I defer" mine anger, and "for my praise" will "I refrain" for thee, that "I cut thee" not off.

10 Behold, "I have refined thee", but not with silver; "I have" chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

11 For "mine own sake", even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and "I will not" give my glory unto another.

12 Hearken "unto me", O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

13 "Mine hand" also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and "my right hand" hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? "The LORD" hath loved him: "he will do" his pleasure on Babylon, and "his arm" shall be on the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and "he shall make" his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; "I have not spoken in secret" from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, "hath sent me".

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; "I am the LORD" thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

I don't believe it was God's intention when HE inspired these Words that I would teach others that "Isaiah" was sent to be my Redeemer. I am happy to discuss what is actually written though, if you like.

Even Paul understood this. "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:and "that (Spiritual) Rock was Christ".

Is HE not the Light of this world that God sent? "Let there be Light"! Did Abraham not rejoice to "See His day", and Saw it and was glad? Where was the Light before God sent it?

Are you teaching that there was NO LIGHT before John the Baptist?

Ex. 10: 22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: 23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel "had light in their dwellings."

How can you say that this wasn't the "Light of God" who God sent into the World?

How?

It is not possible to even answer you beause uyyou already screwed the wording of things that was never once suggested.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Because the Word came to walk the earth as He became flesh. Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

this from your King James preferred.

Um...

So, what is your point?

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

The Word of God is God, was with God as a part of the Trinity, and so forth. He was the eternal God Himself, for it says that He was in the beginning. He was with God, for Jehovah is a trinity, and the Word is one of its three. He was God, for the Word of God is nothing more than a pure divine Spirit. He was with God in the beginning to prove equally independent existence. He was the Creator God of all things, and without Him nothing was created.

@FreeInChrist note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here. The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification. The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary. The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence. The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.

"Was made flesh"

@FreeInChrist this is part of the great mystery of godliness ~ God was manifest in the flesh. The Word of God joining human flesh is not a mystery to us by revelation.

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”


This is an incredible event in all recorded history ~ Jehovah God became man. Remember from John 1:10 the Word was in the world and not known by it. All facts of human history recorded or studied in school pale in comparison. Why all the fuss about asinine nothing? … The Day the Earth Stood Still. Jesus Christ is also known as Emmanuel – God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23 Jesus had a human body indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:8,9).

God is a spirit. Jesus had a body. Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus.

The incarnation of the Word of God with a human body is a precious doctrine. Incarnate. adj. Clothed or invested with flesh; embodied in flesh; in a human bodily form. From the Latin incarnat-us and incarnare. Carne in European languages is flesh or meat. Consider the word carnivore.

The word itself is not in the Bible, but the word means what the Bible says. Theologians use a term hypostatic union to describe our Lord’s two natures.

God is a Spirit (John 4:24), but a human body was prepared for Him (Hebrews 10:5). Christ’s deity nor humanity was changed by the union. He is not fully Jesus Christ, Son of God, without His body (Luke 2:12; 24:39). We reject any variation of the simple doctrine and facts recorded in the Bible. Paul gave us the warning that efforts would be made to spoil us (Colossians 2:8,9). The Word of God did not have a human body in eternity like some teach. The flesh body of Jesus was not a phantom body or a ghost-like apparition. Denial of the human flesh body of Jesus is very wrong (1st John 4:2,3; 2nd John 1:7). Spirits have no flesh, blood, bone; Jesus had all three .

Before the Word was flesh in Jesus, God did not have a Son but by covenant. The Son was not made flesh; the Son did not exist until the Word was flesh. God works by covenant, choosing His elect in Jesus before the world began.

God did not speak to Israel by His Son until Jesus was born (Hebrews 1:1,2). The flesh body prepared for Jesus by God was chosen from David’s family tree. God promised the Messiah to be a Son of David in many places, which most know God’s Son was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3).

Therefore, the Son of God is Son of David (Matthew 1:1; Luke 1:32; Revelation 22:16)

Jesus had to have a literal and real flesh-bone-blood body to die for us sinners. Jesus Christ’s flesh body descended from the Jewish fathers (Romans 9:5). He was made of a woman in her womb in order to have His body (Galatians 4:4). He took on our nature for the suffering of death in our place Hebrews 2:14-18). A body was prepared for Him, and He willingly offered it (Hebrews 10:5-10,20). His body was formed in the womb of a woman like every other man is formed. Mary conceived and bore a human child like others. You know teh scriptures.

"Without a mother", God has no Son … for God made Jesus by her (Galatians 4:4). This way He was made in the likeness of men after being God (Philippians 2:5-11).

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now "the Lord GOD, and his Spirit", hath sent me.

Isn't this the "Light of the World" that was sent even before man was created? Did HE not teach Adam and Eve in the way that they should go?

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Can this Spirit of this same Christ not say of Adam and Eve, " O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments!"

Are you denying the Deity of Christ because you deny that the Spirit of Christ that directed His Footsteps existed with His Father before the World was?

As usual, you make no sense, and the reason being is........ you are void of truth. I can wade through the muddy water of your post and make out somethings you are trying to make, but young Christians would starve to death under your chattering just to be talking, with a gospel, that you have by your own testimony, is different from everyone else, past, present, etc. Just saying we are only teaching the scriptures, do not mean anything, since EVERYONE think they are preaching what Paul and the others apostles taught ~ but NO ONE in church history is even close to you, not one. God did not wait until the very end of the world to raise up you, or me, we must agree with the word of God first and foremost, and with other children of God down through history, or else, we are holding to a false gospel.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

So, what is your point?

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

The Word of God is God, was with God as a part of the Trinity, and so forth. He was the eternal God Himself, for it says that He was in the beginning. He was with God, for Jehovah is a trinity, and the Word is one of its three. He was God, for the Word of God is nothing more than a pure divine Spirit. He was with God in the beginning to prove equally independent existence. He was the Creator God of all things, and without Him nothing was created.

@FreeInChrist note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here. The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification. The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary. The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence. The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.

"Was made flesh"

@FreeInChrist this is part of the great mystery of godliness ~ God was manifest in the flesh. The Word of God joining human flesh is not a mystery to us by revelation.

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”


This is an incredible event in all recorded history ~ Jehovah God became man. Remember from John 1:10 the Word was in the world and not known by it. All facts of human history recorded or studied in school pale in comparison. Why all the fuss about asinine nothing? … The Day the Earth Stood Still. Jesus Christ is also known as Emmanuel – God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23 Jesus had a human body indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:8,9).

God is a spirit. Jesus had a body. Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus.

The incarnation of the Word of God with a human body is a precious doctrine. Incarnate. adj. Clothed or invested with flesh; embodied in flesh; in a human bodily form. From the Latin incarnat-us and incarnare. Carne in European languages is flesh or meat. Consider the word carnivore.

The word itself is not in the Bible, but the word means what the Bible says. Theologians use a term hypostatic union to describe our Lord’s two natures.

God is a Spirit (John 4:24), but a human body was prepared for Him (Hebrews 10:5). Christ’s deity nor humanity was changed by the union. He is not fully Jesus Christ, Son of God, without His body (Luke 2:12; 24:39). We reject any variation of the simple doctrine and facts recorded in the Bible. Paul gave us the warning that efforts would be made to spoil us (Colossians 2:8,9). The Word of God did not have a human body in eternity like some teach. The flesh body of Jesus was not a phantom body or a ghost-like apparition. Denial of the human flesh body of Jesus is very wrong (1st John 4:2,3; 2nd John 1:7). Spirits have no flesh, blood, bone; Jesus had all three .

Before the Word was flesh in Jesus, God did not have a Son but by covenant. The Son was not made flesh; the Son did not exist until the Word was flesh. God works by covenant, choosing His elect in Jesus before the world began.

God did not speak to Israel by His Son until Jesus was born (Hebrews 1:1,2). The flesh body prepared for Jesus by God was chosen from David’s family tree. God promised the Messiah to be a Son of David in many places, which most know God’s Son was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3).

Therefore, the Son of God is Son of David (Matthew 1:1; Luke 1:32; Revelation 22:16)

Jesus had to have a literal and real flesh-bone-blood body to die for us sinners. Jesus Christ’s flesh body descended from the Jewish fathers (Romans 9:5). He was made of a woman in her womb in order to have His body (Galatians 4:4). He took on our nature for the suffering of death in our place Hebrews 2:14-18). A body was prepared for Him, and He willingly offered it (Hebrews 10:5-10,20). His body was formed in the womb of a woman like every other man is formed. Mary conceived and bore a human child like others. You know teh scriptures.

"Without a mother", God has no Son … for God made Jesus by her (Galatians 4:4). This way He was made in the likeness of men after being God (Philippians 2:5-11).

You said... Note the Holy Spirit’s choice of words – the Word, not the Son, was with God. Why do folk want to insert the Son into those words?

Because if you in your heart believe that the baby Mary birthed was Jesus, son of God.... this proves

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh,

The Word that was made flesh was the son of God.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

@Red Baker please answer the above questions. Thanks.

See #51 if you think I have missed something then show it to me, and I WILL answer. Also, I want you to address some of my post. Thanks.

 

[civic]

@civic

See #51 if you think I have missed something then show it to me, and I WILL answer. Also, I want you to address some of my post. Thanks.

I asked 2 clarifying questions about who existed before creation in the Godhead/ Trinity.

It seems your position is there was no Trinity or Godhead before creation is that correct ?

We can’t move past this with our discussion about God until this gets addressed.

So here are the 2 clarifying questions again.

So John 1:1 is describing one spirit not the Word WHO was with God.

So before Creation there was only one spirit and that one spirit was Lord Almighty is that correct ?

There was no Father, Son, Holy Spirit before creation is that correct according to your beliefs ?

 

[Peterlag]

I mean, in other threads this was already discussed.

But the point remains of how someone can be the Messiah, Head of the church, the Lord Christ and not be God.

That is having God's power. If He isn't God by your reckoning, then you've got some kind of polytheistic beliefs.

My point remains on why you think someone who is the Messiah, head of the Church, and Lord Christ has to be God.

 

[Aeliana]

My point remains on why you think someone who is the Messiah, head of the Church, and Lord Christ has to be God.

Maybe because it what the bible tells us. It's the concept known as the Incarnation, where "the Word became flesh". Key verses like Colossians 2:9 state that "all the fullness of God in a human body" dwells in Christ, and John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". This understanding is central to Christian theology, teaching that Jesus was both fully God and fully human.

 

[Red Baker]

So before Creation there was only one spirit and that one spirit was Lord Almighty is that correct ?

There was no Father, Son, Holy Spirit before creation is that correct according to your beliefs ?

In Genesis 1:1 One Spirit was Lord Almighty~Yes.

Civic, If you have read what I posted so far you would know. I said:

God is not Father of the Word; the Word does not declare Him to the Spirit. Names are descriptive, Almighty God, Ancient of Days, King of kings, etc. What is God’s name? It is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, "for all three Persons".

God is Father in creation of Adam (Luke 3:38) and angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)

God is Father of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:2) and us (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4;4-6) but in a different manner. of course..

God as Father in the O.T. is rare, usually of Israel or prophetic of Christ.

I also said:

"Without a mother", God has no Son … for God made Jesus by her (Galatians 4:4). This way He was made in the likeness of men after being God (Philippians 2:5-11).

So, you can take what I have provided to know exactly what I see and understand, and by which I can defend it with the scriptures. The eternal Sonship has many serious problems which I have posted and desire for you to address them. I still have a few more.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

There was no Father, Son, Holy Spirit before creation is that correct according to your beliefs ?

There was ONE eternal Spirit that lives in eternity per Isaiah 57:15

Isaiah 57:15​

“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.”

This testimony of God would have been a perfect place to describe what you think I should be saying which you and many God fearing Christians believe in, but, you are wrong and need to reconsider your understanding. Reasons why are in my post with more to come.

I'm finished until tomorrow.

 

[civic]

@civic

There was ONE eternal Spirit that lives in eternity per Isaiah 57:15

Isaiah 57:15​

“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.”

This testimony of God would have been a perfect place to describe what you think I should be saying which you and many God fearing Christians believe in, but, you are wrong and need to reconsider your understanding. Reasons why are in my post with more to come.

I'm finished until tomorrow.

So One Lord/ God is one person before creation according to your beliefs correct ?

 

[Peterlag]

Maybe because it what the bible tells us. It's the concept known as the Incarnation, where "the Word became flesh". Key verses like Colossians 2:9 state that "all the fullness of God in a human body" dwells in Christ, and John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". This understanding is central to Christian theology, teaching that Jesus was both fully God and fully human.

Trinitarians want to assert that “all the fullness” means “everything God is.” It's clear that they are importing that meaning from their theology. In this context, plērōma means the same thing as it does in Ephesians 3:19, which says that each believer may be “filled with all the fullness [plērōma] of God.”

 

[Aeliana]

For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature]. Colossians 2:9

This verse is one of the clearest and strongest statements in the Bible about who Jesus is. Paul makes it absolutely clear: Jesus is fully God.

The phrase “all the fullness of the Deity” means that everything that makes God who He is-His power, wisdom, holiness, authority, and divine nature-dwells in Jesus completely. Jesus is not just a great teacher, prophet, or an angelic being-He is fully God.

The phrase “lives in bodily form” emphasizes that Jesus is not only divine but also fully human. When Jesus walked on earth, He was not just partly God or a reflection of God-He was God in the flesh.

 

[Studyman]

The verse. We were talking about one specific verse and now you deviate from it.

Clearly I didn't deviate from the verse in question, rather, I included more of God's Word in the specific chapter for the purpose of understanding it. It's hard to understand anyone when you only consider a few of their words. This is undeniable Truth. Your copy and paste sermon promoting that "Isaiah" is the "I have not spoken in secret from the beginning" doesn't make any sense, certainly when more of the chapter is considered. That somehow the Redeemer is the "I", "ME" throughout the entire chapter until verse 16, then the "I" "ME" suddenly becomes Isaiah, without saying as much, then jumps back to being the Redeemer for the rest of the chapter, is a pretty big stretch. And why would you, or the preachers you have adopted, even want make such a stretch? To prove that God didn't send "the Light of the world" into the world? Why would you even want to do that?

The verse emphasizes that this speaker has been sent by the Lord God and His Spirit to deliver a message.

No, the verse makes no such claim. You emphasize, your AI web site emphasizes. But the Scripture doesn't.

The verse was about how Isaiah had been sent by the Lord YHWH and the Holy Spirit to deliver a message.

"Come ye near unto "me", hear ye this; "I have not" spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, "there am I": and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath "sent me".

Clearly Isaiah was not speaking to Israel from the beginning. But the Redeemer was. This is the Redeemer who became flesh, is it not? Before Abraham was, He was there, Yes? He is the Light of the World, sent by His God, Yes?

Or should I look for another?

There is not one suggestion in this verse what the message is.

This is why it is so wrong to only use one sentence in the whole chapter of God's Word or anyone's words for that matter, then separate it from the rest of their words, and then create doctrine by it. Read the first 5 sentences of the very chapter you have invoked, and then say you don't know what the message is?

It is assumed by some to be about the messiah but there is no clear indication in this verse it is assumed.

Isn't the Redeemer, the Spiritual Rock that Paul called "Christ"? Isn't HE the "Light of the World"? Didn't His God send Him? "Let there be Light", and wasn't HE sent "to show men in the way that they should go? Wasn't HE the Light that showed Abraham in the way that HE should go? Didn't this same Christ tell Abraham, "Deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow ME"? The entire Chapter is about the Messiah? Does this offend you?

John 6: 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up "where he was before"?

What in the world do you believe HE was "Doing" "where he was before"?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Were the Word's HE spoke in Isaiah 48, not Spirit and Life?

This is why I don't place my faith in the religions of the world, or those who come in Christ's Name that promote them.

You dont want to play games. Quit ignoring the words you see and trying to put a spin on them that is not there in this case.
Your reading leaves a lot to be desired.... There is nothing in the entire chapter that suggests or even hints at the prophesied Messiah

I know you can't answer, given this is a public venue and you have already judged me. But if you would answer, I would ask you the question, "What is the difference between the "message" of the Redeemer in Israel's Time to the rebellious Jews, and the message of the same Redeemer in Paul's Time to the rebellious Jews"?

That you don't know that the Redeemer is the One Prophesied to become the Messiah, is why I don't listen to all the "other voices" in the garden God placed me in.

And... What does this mean?

So can you show me where the Jesus "of the Bible", the Prophesied Messiah, didn't "emphasize God's authority and presence"?

The habit of omitting the words of others is frustrating. Here, lets look at what I actually said in response to your statement; "some, likely many, argue that it does not explicitly refer to the Messiah but rather emphasizes God's authority and presence."

To which I replied;

So can you show me where the Jesus "of the Bible", the Prophesied Messiah, didn't "emphasize God's authority and presence"?

"Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows".

How is this not the Spirit of Christ on David "emphasizing His God's authority and presence"?

Wouldn't this same "Messiah" not also "emphasize His God's authority and presence" when HE was "up where HE was before"? When HE was "with the glory which HE had with God "before the world was".?

It is not written, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Does HE not acknowledge that HE was "With God" before the world was? Did HE exalt Himself above His God, like Lucifer? Or was it enough for Him to be "As His God" as he also teaches?

I believe He always emphasized His God's Authority and Presence. And was sent by His God to be the Light of this world, my redeemer, my Savior just as HE was sent by His God to be Abraham's Savior, and Noah's.

And for this I am labeled a reprobate by the promoters of this world's religions. An honor I don't take lightly.

Certainly God's authority and presence is all over the chapter but not because of the prophesied Messiah.

What other Spirit did God send to be the Prophesied Messiah, if not the Spiritual Rock, the Holy One of Israel, our redeemer?

What Spirit did Caleb have?

First of all, as the Son he could not or would not have been responsible for emphasizing anything of the Father's authority.

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

When did the Light of the World "Come down from heaven"? Or did Abraham see a different Light?

He merely would confirm. So this make zero sense at least to my comprehension.

Read Isaiah 48 and then you tell me where in these 22 verses that the messiah is invoked.

Here is one, there are others.

12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

What if the internet is wrong, and this world's religious system Jesus warned about over and over that created the internet is wrong? What if the Christ "IS" the Light of this world sent to us by His Father, the One True God, "before creation", to be the Savior of the world?

And what if this Same Christ "is" the advocate between this same One True God, and us to this very day?

After all, the Path to Life is narrow, and few find it. I don't make the rules, I just believe in them enough to be a "doer", not a hearer only, to the Glory of God who gave the rules to my Savior, to give to me.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

So One Lord/ God is one person before creation according to your beliefs correct ?

YES. Brother, the only way any man can protect Jesus' deity.

The best way for you to prove me wrong, if you think I am, then take my post above and below and do it. You will have trouble doing so, trust me. I once was taught your position and held it for around ten years or so, (early seventies to mid 80's) until I was able to search it on my own without listening to outside voices and I was converted to where I am now by the scriptures and with the help of men down through the church history who debated this very subject. The Particular Baptist split over this very subject as far back as 1650 and could be back even further than that date ~but, I know for sure around then.

 

[Red Baker]

Continue from #52

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist


Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures teach the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"

It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!

The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.

When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.

When reading such scriptures as 1 Peter 1:11; 1 Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1 Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.

Question #5~ "Can the Most High thus address a derived, dependent being, as God, without establishing idolatry?"

Absolutely not! Yet the Most High God did address his Son as God.

Hebrews 1:8~ Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is forever and ever."

So, Jesus is the Son, yet is God that shall reign forever and ever. That will come to pass the scriptures that are written: "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 and many more~Rev. 21:3,22,23; Rev. 22:3,4,9,16,19-20. SO, Jesus will be the ONLY God angels and man will ever see, for he is the "express image" of who God is in a glorified body.

Question #6~ "Did Paul, or any other apostles, or prophets, ever lead us to believe that Jesus and God, were not essentially one." Never! But, what they taught us plainly was that Jesus was indeed God blessed for ever. Paul said these words: Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." ~Romans 9:5

Question #7~"Can a derived and dependent person be Almighty?"

Most certainly not! Yet, Jesus was the mighty God promised by the prophets as we read from Isaiah 9:6. Jesus called himself the Almighty, listen to his own words: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:1:8

If Jesus was the beginning of all things, and he was, then he was not the eternal Son, because, the word son, "by definition", proves a beginning~if he is Almighty, and he is, then no one is greater than he is, none. He alone will be worshiped in that world to come, for he will reign as King forever more, world without end.

One more, post to finished my questions.

 

[Red Baker]

Continue from #78

@civic @Eternally-Grateful @FreeInChrist

Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel ~ Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.

We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.

Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"

The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.

Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.

Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.

1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.

The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!

John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!

1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."

John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!

John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!

Jesus as God's Son had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9

Now, please address my three post if you think I'm wrong, you cannot avoid what I have given to prove my position using scriptures. Or, at least be honest enough to say.....I need more time to ponder this, which all can understand that, for we all have been there.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now "the Lord GOD, and his Spirit", hath sent me.

Isn't this the "Light of the World" that was sent even before man was created? Did HE not teach Adam and Eve in the way that they should go?

Now that I have time to spare let me wade through your muddy waters of understanding and see if I can clear up these waters somewhat.

So, why would you use this scripture and say that I'm denying the deity of Jesus Christ, is beyond me. You said:

Are you denying the Deity of Christ because you deny that the Spirit of Christ that directed His Footsteps existed with His Father before the World was?

The person the prophet is speaking about was no other than The LORD Jehovah, the everlasting Father of all things. This is true in Jesus' Deity as the God of Genesis 1;1 cp Colossians 1:15-17.

Isaiah 48:12,13​

“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.”

Studyman, you truly do not believe Isaiah 48 since you more than once have mocked God's election of grace, and Isaiah of all prophets said the most concerning this blessed truth, even in the verse before us, he clearly said: "“Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called"....but since this thread is not about this truth, we can wait for another day concerning addressing this biblical teaching.