civic
Active Member
So you are basically a hybrid . A unitarian before creation and a modalist after creation.
You definitely are not a Trinitarian.
Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
- Start date
You definitely are not a Trinitarian.
Arguing with a man who is never wrong is a futile endeavor. The only reason why I reply to your posts, is so others might see the foolishness of your adopted religious philosophy, and avoid it like the plague.
Civic has exposed your philosophy as well as anyone. While I disagree with him on some important Biblical teaching, he has certainly understood the folly of Calvinism. If you can't bring yourself to consider the Scriptures he posts, which expose your preaching as false, why would I be foolish enough to believe you would accept the same Scriptures, if I showed them to you?
Thanks for the offer, but already been there, done that.
civic
Active Member
You should debate an actual Trinitarian who is a Calvinist , and we have several good ones on the forum.
And you do a good job defending what you believe even though you know I disagree.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Thank you, actually the laptop I was on died... and I have to take it as under extended warranty so that might
be part of my problem... but I will use that draft feature in the future.
Thanks again
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You have got to be kidding.
My heavenly Father knows I am only showing you your errors through your preferred :Jimmy's" Translation
If time permits. I am way behind today so will try to catch up and we shall see.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I do believe that those who see God electing them, instead of Jesus Christ personally, can ultimately have this issue.
I've come to realize over the years, that the battle for the Truth centers around how much someone really knows about Jesus Christ. The more you know Him, the more meaningful He becomes. The more you see God's choice in Christ is God's choice in Himself.
@Studyman
He has not even prove his own position, as of yet.
Studyman, all you are doing is much like the Pharisees and Sadducees did when they teamed up teamed against Christ stroking each other's ego! By doing so, you seemly can escape the exposure of your own false teaching somewhat, an dfeel good about what you are teaching, even though against the word of God.
Actually he has not even attempted to disprove my post, and all he has done thus far, is asked question, nothing more.
He has not even prove his own position, as of yet.
Studyman, all you are doing is much like the Pharisees and Sadducees did when they teamed up teamed against Christ stroking each other's ego! By doing so, you seemly can escape the exposure of your own false teaching somewhat, an dfeel good about what you are teaching, even though against the word of God.
Not one on one with me, and only me! A wise choice on your part not going head to head with me, in a separate debate, with your lying gospel of exalting man's works over the truth of God's free grace, without works on the sinner's part.
civic
Active Member
That’s false see below in this thread where I proved the Sons pre existing before His birth as a man.
Below we see Scripture affirms the Sons pre-existence prior to the Incarnation.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermeneutics 101.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Colossians 1:15-19
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John tells us the same below:
1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
As does Paul below:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.
You cannot send Someone who does not exist, ie the Son.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
1 John 4:9. toward us—Greek, "in our case."
sent—Greek, "hath sent."
into the world—a proof against Socinians, that the Son existed before He was "sent into the world." Otherwise, too, He could not have been our life (1Jo 4:9), our "propitiation" (1Jo 4:10), or our "Saviour" (1Jo 4:14). It is the grand proof of God's love, His having sent "His only-begotten Son, that we might live through Him," who is the Life, and who has redeemed our forfeited life; and it is also the grand motive to our mutual love.
1 John 1:1-4
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 3:8- The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
We clearly see the Father in the O.T.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
And the Son
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god
Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?
Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”
“Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging” (comment on 11:27).
The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament[Zondervan, 2010], p. 440). https://drjimsebt.com/2023/04/17/when-did-jesus-become-the-son-of-god/
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26)
This grant cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
John 17:24:
24 Father, those whom you have given me, I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which you have given me because you have loved me before the foundation of the world. (My translation)
Being a Father implies a Son. What was the Father doing before the foundation or creation of the world? He was loving his Son.
John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature–Father and Son–beyond God and Logos. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
Jesus says that he was in the presence of the Father: “I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence” […] (John 8:38). The term “presence” can be translated as “alongside” or “next to” the Father. The point: they were in close relationship as we see in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
Hebrews 1:2 says: “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” That verse says that the Son was the person through whom God made the universe. He was the Son before creation, long before his birth. That verses also identifies who the Logos was in John 1:1-4.
Hebrews 1:3:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being […] (Heb. 1:3)
God’s radiance and his being are eternal because light that does not radiate is not light, and God’s being is not temporary with a beginning; therefore the Son is also eternal
conclusion: this debate is over the Son is Eternal just as the Father is Eternal and the Holy Spirit is Eternal. We call Them the Trinity- One God, 3 Persons identified as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
civic
Active Member
@Red Baker Oh and BTW I can defend both the biblical view of the Trinity and 2 natures in Christ as well as the historical/ orthodox view as well as anyone you will find on any online forum.
This is why I can say beyond all doubt you are not a biblical or orthodox trinitarian or one who believes in the biblical and historical/ orthodox deity of Christ and His 2 natures.
hope this helps !!!
This is why I can say beyond all doubt you are not a biblical or orthodox trinitarian or one who believes in the biblical and historical/ orthodox deity of Christ and His 2 natures.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Active Member
It is this belief that changes us.
civic
Active Member
For sure if you are wrong about Gods nature and character it effects one’s entire theology / doctrine. It’s the trickle down effect
@FreeInChrist
Why not take what I have thus far posted and prove what I have said and show me any error in my three of four post above, something @civic @Studyman, etc., refuses to do.
Kidding about what, that you have truth on this subject that I do not have? Well, you can certainly see if you do, but I'm 100% sure you do not, so bring it on. I welcome any truth a person thinks they have, but for sure you will be tested with the scriptures and no mercy will be shown just because you are a women. I do like you, but I love God's truth more, and will defend it to the best of my God given ability as firm as I can without purposely offending just to be offensive. But truth does offend when a brother or sister brings it without compromising it with strong rebuking. So, just be prepared.
Well, men in the past (and still doing so) thought they too were doing God a service when they were in fact doing the devil's work.
John 16:2
“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.”Why not take what I have thus far posted and prove what I have said and show me any error in my three of four post above, something @civic @Studyman, etc., refuses to do.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I see you just made a post, I'll look at it probably early in the morning since we are leaving at moment, be back later.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
@Red Baker
I agree with @civic here.
Where was the Son before creation? The Scriptures speak of the
"The only begotten in the bosom of the Father."
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So you call Jesus Christ "The Father"?
I don't really think that you have a better understanding than Red. All Israel was called,. but not for salvation; rather all Israel was call for service, specifically to bring the Messiah. There is calling for service and there is calling for salvation; they are not the same.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You should debate RED. You should extend the offer and see if he takes you up on it. One on one. So it be controlled
without the others, me included popping in with ideas
Ill be
Not true. Romans 8:28 says that those who love God are called.
