Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Peterlag]

The question is if Jesus ever was not God, how could He take on the sin of the world?

You may say God could not take on sin.. but neither could mortal man.

You can't have Jesus having all that power to take on and forgive sin, and be lesser than God.

Otherwise, as i've said before, you are left with men having the ability to attain godhood or be some kind of semi-god.. which is foreign to scripture.

Jesus was never a mortal man. Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

And there's no Scripture that says only God could take on sin. And there is Scripture that says a man had to do it.

Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[360watt]

Jesus was never a mortal man. Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

And there's no Scripture that says only God could take on sin. And there is Scripture that says a man had to do it.

Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

If He is not mortal man the only other option is God.

Unless you are polytheistic.

But anyway.. this had been covered many times earlier

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Jim, the Lord Jesus arose from the dead with a glorified body of POWER. Without saying very much now for lack of time, I will only mentioned two or three points.

Nah, there is nothing that even hints that Jesus' body after He rose from the dead was any different from His body before.

This glorified body had the power to appear and disappear at will. It had power to think to be somewhere and then appear instantly.

That was nothing more than being able to work miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Trust all is going well with you.

I don't know that I would say that all is going well with me. I still miss my son very much, but I am getting used to his being gone from this earth. But thank you very much for thinking of me. I know that you are not without your own trials and tribulations that you are dealing with.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

So before creation who existed?

Was it One singular person who was the one Lord God ?

Please spell it out thanks .

Can you read? Of course you can...I said in very plain words:

Brother, here is what I understand and believe. No, they are not post Creation, mainly the NT ~ before.... there was only one LORD God, period.

There was the Word which was God, who is a Eternal Spirit with no beginning, and with no ending. Now we see this to be in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who in his Deity was God without qualification.

Revelation 1:8​

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[civic]

@civic

Can you read? Of course you can...I said in very plain words:

There was the Word which was God, who is a Eternal Spirit with no beginning, and with no ending. Now we see this to be in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who in his Deity was God without qualification.

Revelation 1:8​

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

So John 1:1 is describing one spirit not the Word WHO was with God.

So before Creation there was only one spirit and that one spirit was Lord Almighty is that correct ?

There was no Father, Son, Holy Spirit before creation is that correct according to your beliefs ?

 

[FreeInChrist]

The question is if Jesus ever was not God, how could He take on the sin of the world?

You may say God could not take on sin.. but neither could mortal man.

You can't have Jesus having all that power to take on and forgive sin, and be lesser than God.

Otherwise, as i've said before, you are left with men having the ability to attain godhood or be some kind of semi-god.. which is foreign to scripture.

Yes and No
And you know I am 100% on the Jesus IS God side.

"You can't have Jesus having all that power to take on and forgive sin, and be lesser than God."

Disagree.

I say ~ Jesus emptied himself to take on human form and serve as a savior, allowing him to forgive sins through his sacrifice. This act of self-limitation is often referred to as "kenosis," highlighting his humility and obedience

People get so upset when they hear He emptied Himself. But as you say " "You can't have Jesus having all that power to take on ........... sin, ."

He was sent to be our sacrificial lamb. If he did not empty Himself I do not believe it would have worked.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@civic

Can you read? Of course you can...I said in very plain words:

There was the Word which was God, who is a Eternal Spirit with no beginning, and with no ending. Now we see this to be in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who in his Deity was God without qualification.

Revelation 1:8​

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

I am confused.

Can you just say yes or no that God YHWH, or Jehovah if you prefer, was one single person, one single person with three parts in one, and not three separate that make up the Godhead that comes from the King James Translation?

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

I am confused again.

" there was only one LORD God, period."

So you deny John 1 when he said "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
from your choice KJV clearly said there were two.?

I do not deny scriptures, but labor to understand them as a cohesive whole, allowing scriptures to flow all together, teaching, revealing, to us the truth on any given subject. Of all biblical subjects, without controversy this is the most difficult. But we must labor to protect Jesus' Deity as God, and the incarnate Sonship is the only one that does. But not without some difficultly. Please bear with me, we must be thorough, for others benefit.

"the Word was with God"...........

Note the Holy Spirit’s choice of words – the Word, not the Son, was with God. Why do folk want to insert the Son into those words?

John’s second descriptive fact to learn about the Word is that He was with God. The first descriptive fact about the Word was that He was in the beginning. The third descriptive fact, also contained in this verse, is that He was God. The fourth descriptive fact, in the next verse, is He was with God in eternity. The fifth descriptive fact, the third verse, is that the Word created all things.

We understand these five descriptive facts to teach certain general attributes. First, by the first phrase of 1:1, we understand the Word’s eternal existence. Second, by the next phrase, we understand He is a distinct Godhead person. Third, by the third phrase, we know He is God like the God He was with. Fourth, by the second verse, we know He was eternal like God He was with. Fifth, by the third verse, we know He is uncreated and Creator of all things.

The Word of God, as God, yet with God and distinct from God, is the Trinity. We know the Word of God is God by looking ahead to the third phrase. If the Word of God was God and also was with God, then there is plurality. Since there is only one God, then there must be plural Persons (Deuteronomy 6:4 ).

Christianity is a monotheistic religion "as much as" monotheism can be defined. Monotheism. The doctrine or belief that there is only one God. [OED]. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are widely practiced forms of monotheism. Judaism and Islam both got their monotheism from the Christian Bible. But, they are not Christians!

Polytheism. Belief in, or worship of, many gods (or more than one God). Greece, Rome, Mormonism, and especially Hinduism were/are polytheistic. There is no pantheon or arrangement of multiple deities in Christianity. Hindus are so blinded that they have millions gods or deities to sort out.

There is only one God. Period. There can only be one totally Supreme Being. This is self-evident if we define and describe God as the Supreme Being. The scriptures declare it clearly (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; and 1st Corinthians 8:4-6)

God is eternal in both directions without end (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalms 90:2; Isaiah 57:14; etc.)

Our God is self-existent, self-subsistent, infinitely independent (Exodus 3;14). Before this revelation, I AM THAT I AM, He was Almighty God (Exodus 6). Our God’s name is Jehovah, and He is infinitely transcendent to all gods.

Yet, the Bible also indicates and declares a plurality in the Godhead of Jehovah. This is part of the mystery of Christ and a mystery it is. So much so, that godly folks divide over it.

And John, the writer of this gospel, declared three-in-one clearly (1st John 5:5-7)). They are the Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32, and of course John 1:1; Isaiah 48:16)

They are also Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Matthew 3;116-17; 28:19,20; 2nd Corinthians 13: 14) They are also Spirit, Lord, and God operating in the church (1st Corinthians 10:4-6) ). Or they can be the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man of Daniel (Daniel 7:13) ).

All three participated in different ways at Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:16,17)

We absolutely trust 1st John 5:7and consider it as much scripture as any other, and of course we do.

There is no difference in nature between these three Persons in the Godhead. The nature of God is the attributes that makes Him distinctly God (Galatians 4:8)). When three are said to be one (1st John 5:7), they are one in essence and nature.

All three are credited with creation (Job 33:4; Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 4:11) All three are credited with regeneration (John 5:25; John 1:13). All three are credited with resurrection (Galatians 1:1; Romans 1:4; John 10L18)

The Bible trinity is far superior to the speculative trinities of any other origin. The Nicene Creed (RCC) and its adoring followers hold to a heretical trinity. The Bible has all three Persons without any distinction at all in their nature. The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and similar human speculations. The Bible does not know a begotten god, turning the trinity into paganism.

They are named for their given roles in creation or especially in our redemption.

They did not need names for each other; they were part of the same nature.

Their names are for us; their names do not alter their absolute equality.

God is not Father of the Word; the Word does not declare Him to the Spirit. Names are descriptive, Almighty God, Ancient of Days, King of kings, etc. What is God’s name? It is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, "for all three Persons".

God is Father in creation of Adam (Luke 3:38) and angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)

God is Father of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:2) and us (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4;4-6) but in a different manner. of course..

God as Father in the O.T. is rare, usually of Israel or prophetic of Christ.

 

[civic]

@FreeInChrist

I do not deny scriptures, but labor to understand them as a cohesive whole, allowing scriptures to flow all together, teaching, revealing, to us the truth on any given subject. Of all biblical subjects, without controversy this is the most difficult. But we must labor to protect Jesus' Deity as God, and the incarnate Sonship is the only one that does. But not without some difficultly. Please bear with me, we must be thorough, for others benefit.

"the Word was with God"...........

Note the Holy Spirit’s choice of words – the Word, not the Son, was with God. Why do folk want to insert the Son into those words?

John’s second descriptive fact to learn about the Word is that He was with God. The first descriptive fact about the Word was that He was in the beginning. The third descriptive fact, also contained in this verse, is that He was God. The fourth descriptive fact, in the next verse, is He was with God in eternity. The fifth descriptive fact, the third verse, is that the Word created all things.

We understand these five descriptive facts to teach certain general attributes. First, by the first phrase of 1:1, we understand the Word’s eternal existence. Second, by the next phrase, we understand He is a distinct Godhead person. Third, by the third phrase, we know He is God like the God He was with. Fourth, by the second verse, we know He was eternal like God He was with. Fifth, by the third verse, we know He is uncreated and Creator of all things.

The Word of God, as God, yet with God and distinct from God, is the Trinity. We know the Word of God is God by looking ahead to the third phrase. If the Word of God was God and also was with God, then there is plurality. Since there is only one God, then there must be plural Persons (Deuteronomy 6:4 ).

Christianity is a monotheistic religion "as much as" monotheism can be defined. Monotheism. The doctrine or belief that there is only one God. [OED]. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are widely practiced forms of monotheism. Judaism and Islam both got their monotheism from the Christian Bible. But, they are not Christians!

Polytheism. Belief in, or worship of, many gods (or more than one God). Greece, Rome, Mormonism, and especially Hinduism were/are polytheistic. There is no pantheon or arrangement of multiple deities in Christianity. Hindus are so blinded that they have millions gods or deities to sort out.

There is only one God. Period. There can only be one totally Supreme Being. This is self-evident if we define and describe God as the Supreme Being. The scriptures declare it clearly (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; and 1st Corinthians 8:4-6)

God is eternal in both directions without end (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalms 90:2; Isaiah 57:14; etc.)

Our God is self-existent, self-subsistent, infinitely independent (Exodus 3;14). Before this revelation, I AM THAT I AM, He was Almighty God (Exodus 6). Our God’s name is Jehovah, and He is infinitely transcendent to all gods.

Yet, the Bible also indicates and declares a plurality in the Godhead of Jehovah. This is part of the mystery of Christ and a mystery it is. So much so, that godly folks divide over it.

And John, the writer of this gospel, declared three-in-one clearly (1st John 5:5-7)). They are the Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32, and of course John 1:1; Isaiah 48:16)

They are also Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Matthew 3;116-17; 28:19,20; 2nd Corinthians 13: 14) They are also Spirit, Lord, and God operating in the church (1st Corinthians 10:4-6) ). Or they can be the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man of Daniel (Daniel 7:13) ).

All three participated in different ways at Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:16,17)

We absolutely trust 1st John 5:7and consider it as much scripture as any other, and of course we do.

There is no difference in nature between these three Persons in the Godhead. The nature of God is the attributes that makes Him distinctly God (Galatians 4:8)). When three are said to be one (1st John 5:7), they are one in essence and nature.

All three are credited with creation (Job 33:4; Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 4:11) All three are credited with regeneration (John 5:25; John 1:13). All three are credited with resurrection (Galatians 1:1; Romans 1:4; John 10L18)

The Bible trinity is far superior to the speculative trinities of any other origin. The Nicene Creed (RCC) and its adoring followers hold to a heretical trinity. The Bible has all three Persons without any distinction at all in their nature. The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and similar human speculations. The Bible does not know a begotten god, turning the trinity into paganism.



God is not Father of the Word; the Word does not declare Him to the Spirit. Names are descriptive, Almighty God, Ancient of Days, King of kings, etc. What is God’s name? It is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, "for all three Persons".

God is Father in creation of Adam (Luke 3:38) and angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)

God is Father of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:2) and us (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4;4-6) but in a different manner. of course..

God as Father in the O.T. is rare, usually of Israel or prophetic of Christ.

There is no word OF God in John 1:1

It says the Word ( not of ) was with God.

 

[Peterlag]

If He is not mortal man the only other option is God.

Unless you are polytheistic.

But anyway.. this had been covered many times earlier

It was never covered not even once. You folks just block it out of your minds and say we covered it. For example what I just wrote here... Jesus was never a mortal man. Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ. You can't see the words "son of God" or "Messiah to Israel" or the "resurrected Lord Christ" so you block it out and read mortal man.

Scond example... you block out that... there's no Scripture that says only God could take on sin. And there is Scripture that says a man had to do it.

Third example... Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

There is no word OF God in John 1:1

It says the Word ( not of ) was with God.

Civic, please follow me carefully, I clarify, or made it clear as to what I meant when I said:

The Word of God, as God, yet with God and distinct from God, is the Trinity.

Do not seek to make me offender over words. I'm here to protect Jesus' Deity not to destroy it! Eternal Sonship position does just that. Why do you not take some time today and prove #52 wrong and I'm going to do one or two more today and prove me wrong my what I post in them, then we can talk more. If you do not, nor you cannot then truly you have no beef with what I teach.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic @FreeInChrist @Eternally-Grateful

One more time consider these questions and I desire for those who defend the eternal Sonship doctrine to address this post.

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask ~ "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If one speaks of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, they they must be able to comprehensibly define their terms used or confess that they are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.

Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully and the address if you can: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

Reason #2~If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, (one and the same) according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation.

We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!

The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.

The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.

I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".

Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.

Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"

Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.

Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.

 

[Jim]

@FreeInChrist

I do not deny scriptures, but labor to understand them as a cohesive whole, allowing scriptures to flow all together, teaching, revealing, to us the truth on any given subject. Of all biblical subjects, without controversy this is the most difficult. But we must labor to protect Jesus' Deity as God, and the incarnate Sonship is the only one that does. But not without some difficultly. Please bear with me, we must be thorough, for others benefit.

"the Word was with God"...........

Note the Holy Spirit’s choice of words – the Word, not the Son, was with God. Why do folk want to insert the Son into those words?

John’s second descriptive fact to learn about the Word is that He was with God. The first descriptive fact about the Word was that He was in the beginning. The third descriptive fact, also contained in this verse, is that He was God. The fourth descriptive fact, in the next verse, is He was with God in eternity. The fifth descriptive fact, the third verse, is that the Word created all things.

We understand these five descriptive facts to teach certain general attributes. First, by the first phrase of 1:1, we understand the Word’s eternal existence. Second, by the next phrase, we understand He is a distinct Godhead person. Third, by the third phrase, we know He is God like the God He was with. Fourth, by the second verse, we know He was eternal like God He was with. Fifth, by the third verse, we know He is uncreated and Creator of all things.

The Word of God, as God, yet with God and distinct from God, is the Trinity. We know the Word of God is God by looking ahead to the third phrase. If the Word of God was God and also was with God, then there is plurality. Since there is only one God, then there must be plural Persons (Deuteronomy 6:4 ).

Christianity is a monotheistic religion "as much as" monotheism can be defined. Monotheism. The doctrine or belief that there is only one God. [OED]. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are widely practiced forms of monotheism. Judaism and Islam both got their monotheism from the Christian Bible. But, they are not Christians!

Polytheism. Belief in, or worship of, many gods (or more than one God). Greece, Rome, Mormonism, and especially Hinduism were/are polytheistic. There is no pantheon or arrangement of multiple deities in Christianity. Hindus are so blinded that they have millions gods or deities to sort out.

There is only one God. Period. There can only be one totally Supreme Being. This is self-evident if we define and describe God as the Supreme Being. The scriptures declare it clearly (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; and 1st Corinthians 8:4-6)

God is eternal in both directions without end (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalms 90:2; Isaiah 57:14; etc.)

Our God is self-existent, self-subsistent, infinitely independent (Exodus 3;14). Before this revelation, I AM THAT I AM, He was Almighty God (Exodus 6). Our God’s name is Jehovah, and He is infinitely transcendent to all gods.

Yet, the Bible also indicates and declares a plurality in the Godhead of Jehovah. This is part of the mystery of Christ and a mystery it is. So much so, that godly folks divide over it.

And John, the writer of this gospel, declared three-in-one clearly (1st John 5:5-7)). They are the Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32, and of course John 1:1; Isaiah 48:16)

They are also Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Matthew 3;116-17; 28:19,20; 2nd Corinthians 13: 14) They are also Spirit, Lord, and God operating in the church (1st Corinthians 10:4-6) ). Or they can be the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man of Daniel (Daniel 7:13) ).

All three participated in different ways at Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:16,17)

We absolutely trust 1st John 5:7and consider it as much scripture as any other, and of course we do.

There is no difference in nature between these three Persons in the Godhead. The nature of God is the attributes that makes Him distinctly God (Galatians 4:8)). When three are said to be one (1st John 5:7), they are one in essence and nature.

All three are credited with creation (Job 33:4; Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 4:11) All three are credited with regeneration (John 5:25; John 1:13). All three are credited with resurrection (Galatians 1:1; Romans 1:4; John 10L18)

The Bible trinity is far superior to the speculative trinities of any other origin. The Nicene Creed (RCC) and its adoring followers hold to a heretical trinity. The Bible has all three Persons without any distinction at all in their nature. The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and similar human speculations. The Bible does not know a begotten god, turning the trinity into paganism.



God is not Father of the Word; the Word does not declare Him to the Spirit. Names are descriptive, Almighty God, Ancient of Days, King of kings, etc. What is God’s name? It is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, "for all three Persons".

God is Father in creation of Adam (Luke 3:38) and angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)

God is Father of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:2) and us (Romans 8:15; Galatians 4;4-6) but in a different manner. of course..

God as Father in the O.T. is rare, usually of Israel or prophetic of Christ.

Red, you present what could be called Theological Modalism of the Trinity, but at the same time deny that you present Theological Modalism. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct divine beings; they are not gods, they are God, The three distinct beings are one God. I would refer you to the following:

THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

I do not deny scriptures, but labor to understand them as a cohesive whole, allowing scriptures to flow all together, teaching, revealing, to us the truth on any given subject. Of all biblical subjects, without controversy this is the most difficult. But we must labor to protect Jesus' Deity as God, and the incarnate Sonship is the only one that does. But not without some difficultly. Please bear with me, we must be thorough, for others benefit.

"the Word was with God"...........

Note the Holy Spirit’s choice of words – the Word, not the Son, was with God. Why do folk want to insert the Son into those words?

Because the Word came to walk the earth as He became flesh. Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

this from your King James preferred.

Um...

 

[Jim]

@civic @FreeInChrist @Eternally-Grateful

One more time consider these questions and I desire for those who defend the eternal Sonship doctrine to address this post.

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

That which became the Son was called the Word in John 1; that which became Jesus was eternal. His earthly name was Jesus. He was the Christ, the Messiah.

It is a spiritual concept that is quite beyond the experiential knowledge of man. Nevertheless it is truth.

 

[Jay]

One significant passage which establishes the pre-existence of Christ as the eternal Son of God is Romans 8:3. The doctrine of Christ’s Eternal Sonship is clearly taught in this text:

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.
Romans 8:3

 

[civic]

So John 1:1 is describing one spirit not the Word WHO was with God.

So before Creation there was only one spirit and that one spirit was Lord Almighty is that correct ?

There was no Father, Son, Holy Spirit before creation is that correct according to your beliefs ?

@Red Baker please answer the above questions. Thanks.

 

[Studyman]

@civic

Can you read? Of course you can...I said in very plain words:

There was the Word which was God, who is a Eternal Spirit with no beginning, and with no ending. Now we see this to be in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, who in his Deity was God without qualification.

Revelation 1:8​

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now "the Lord GOD, and his Spirit", hath sent me.

Isn't this the "Light of the World" that was sent even before man was created? Did HE not teach Adam and Eve in the way that they should go?

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Can this Spirit of this same Christ not say of Adam and Eve, " O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments!"

Are you denying the Deity of Christ because you deny that the Spirit of Christ that directed His Footsteps existed with His Father before the World was?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now "the Lord GOD, and his Spirit", hath sent me.

Isn't this the "Light of the World" that was sent even before man was created? Did HE not teach Adam and Eve in the way that they should go?

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Can this Spirit of this same Christ not say of Adam and Eve, " O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments!"

Are you denying the Deity of Christ because you deny that the Spirit of Christ that directed His Footsteps existed with His Father before the World was?

NO. No cigar.

The Lord God refers to the sovereign deity in the Bible, often identified as Yahweh or Jehovah, who is the creator and ruler of the universe. In the context of Isaiah 48:16, it signifies God's authority and presence in sending a messenger, often interpreted as a prophet or the Messiah.

In this passage, "me" refers to Isaiah in Isaiah 48:16,.

While this In this passage, has been interpreted as a prophet or a figure representing God's message, as possibly alluding to the Messiah. It is also often interpreted by Christians as alluding to the Messiah, suggesting a divine speaker (Isaiah) who is sent by God and His Spirit, indicating a plurality within the Godhead.

But before you jump up and down and think "I got you" or "Here is proof", because interpretations vary ... some, likely many, argue that it does not explicitly refer to the Messiah but rather emphasizes God's authority and presence.





The verse emphasizes that this speaker has been sent by the Lord God and His Spirit to deliver a message.

 

[360watt]

It was never covered not even once. You folks just block it out of your minds and say we covered it. For example what I just wrote here... Jesus was never a mortal man. Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ. You can't see the words "son of God" or "Messiah to Israel" or the "resurrected Lord Christ" so you block it out and read mortal man.

Scond example... you block out that... there's no Scripture that says only God could take on sin. And there is Scripture that says a man had to do it.

Third example... Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

I mean, in other threads this was already discussed.

But the point remains of how someone can be the Messiah, Head of the church, the Lord Christ and not be God.

That is having God's power. If He isn't God by your reckoning, then you've got some kind of polytheistic beliefs.