Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[FreeInChrist]

There are way to many passages that must be ignored or twisted to deny that the Son is eternal in the same way the Father is eternal.

Yes, and I posted a lot yesterday only to be countered with

You said: "irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation."

Jesus as the Son of God was conceived and born around two thousand years ago, we have the record of his birth recorded for us in Luke's gospel. God had no Son until then, only in his eternal purposes did he purpose to have a Son.

And this shows me that not 1/3 of my post was read or understood.

I am not faulting RB necessarily for this but I just find it ironic that of one who posts such long threads and replies really do not
read anyone else's.

That is why I cut it to Jim in length and fell if I must make multiple posts... then I will ...

 

[Jim]

There are way to many passages that must be ignored or twisted to deny that the Son is eternal in the same way the Father is eternal.

Is the Son the same or different than the man Jesus who lived about 30+ years some 2000 years ago? I realize that some think that man, a physical human being, still exists in heaven. I do not. I do believe that the divine being who took on the flesh and blood of a human being 2000 years ago is eternal but is no longer a physical human being.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I realize that some think that man, a physical human being, still exists in heaven. I do not. I do believe that the divine being who took on the flesh and blood of a human being 2000 years ago is eternal but is no longer a physical human being.

I'll let @civic answer this but from my beliefs.

Is the Son the same or different than the man Jesus who lived about 30+ years some 2000 years ago?

Ill answer this this way. The same.
The Son was sent as a man (Baby who grew into a man) by his Father ~God (and I want to just simplify this and I will)
to be the Savior for those with the faith in Him. NO... dont drag that one out, please.
Therefore we first knew Him as a baby. But as studies go one we came to realize that this baby , who had been named Jesus.
was actually the one we know as the Word.... and we know this from John 1:14 (I am skipping John 1:1 deliberately)
but 14 says And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So the Word was then called Jesus because he became Jesus. So to carry out the plan of our Father... this had to be.

I do not believe that Christ Jesus is in Heaven beside his father as flesh and blood.

I believe his Spirit is, as is his soul (You have to be a tripartite believer to understand)

On the cross flesh and blood Jesus said (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I ENTRUST MY SPIRIT.” And having said this, He died.

His flesh went nowhere. Except into His tomb. And those who saw him afterward he was in His Glorified body. Except those who saw Him immediately at the tomb.
Remember he said to Mary do not hold on to me because I have not ascended to my Father? WHY?
I think that had to happen for him to either get a new glorified,or the one he was in would be glorified and
human touch might either contaminate... or interfere. (strictly my thoughts0

Anyway, I cannot answer if he currently has a physical form in Heaven or just a spiritual one and that his glorified body, will be for the completion of the Fathers plan, for ever and ever once he comes again. (Just like our rotten flesh will be left behind for our own glorified bodies.

DO NOT poopoo that idea as it is as valid as many that I read on here

And yes, I know this is likely at odds with Jack Cottrell . I dont care

.But I firmly believe the Bible supports the Son was with the Father as in the Godhead (Trinity) from Eternity past.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Nice try but a failure since John did not pre exist his human birth. The was no incarnation with John. In fact John said 2 times Jesus who was born 6 months after John existed before him.

I used the exact same argument that you used to to prove Jesus being a Son before he acutely was conceived and born as such. Neither of them existed as such before they was conceived and born.

You said and I quote: "In fact John said 2 times Jesus who was born 6 months after John existed before him."

To this "I agree", Jesus was indeed before John, as the everlasting Father of all things! Per Isaiah 9:6, but not as Jesus, the Son of God.....The I AM THAT I AM.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@civic

I used the exact same argument that you used to to prove Jesus being a Son before he acutely was conceived and born as such. Neither of them existed as such before they was conceived and born.

You said and I quote: "In fact John said 2 times Jesus who was born 6 months after John existed before him."

To this "I agree", Jesus was indeed before John, as the everlasting Father of all things! Per Isaiah 9:6, but not as Jesus, the Son of God.....The I AM THAT I AM.

so jesus was the father

but not the son

but the word calls him the son.



now we have confusion.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

I am not faulting RB necessarily for this but I just find it ironic that of one who posts such long threads and replies really do not
read anyone else's.

Not sure what you are trying to say, but, before God I read not only the one's to me, but all of in the thread I'm considering.

I'm stepping out maybe for the rest of the day, and may head later to watch my grandson's high School football game. He's their running back and he wants me there. He's playing here in the same county where Clemson University is and some of their coaches come to the game, and he wants to put on a good showing ~ he could be the faster player on the field, or even in the whole county, if not, he's close.

 

[Red Baker]

@Eternally-Grateful

so jesus was the father

but not the son

but the word calls him the son.



now we have confusion.

In his Deity, he is the everlasting Father; in his humanity, Jesus is God's only begotten Son...later

 

[Jim]

I'll let @civic answer this but from my beliefs.

Is the Son the same or different than the man Jesus who lived about 30+ years some 2000 years ago?

Ill answer this this way. The same.
The Son was sent as a man (Baby who grew into a man) by his Father ~God (and I want to just simplify this and I will)
to be the Savior for those with the faith in Him. NO... dont drag that one out, please.
Therefore we first knew Him as a baby. But as studies go one we came to realize that this baby , who had been named Jesus.
was actually the one we know as the Word.... and we know this from John 1:14 (I am skipping John 1:1 deliberately)
but 14 says And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So the Word was then called Jesus because he became Jesus. So to carry out the plan of our Father... this had to be.

I do not believe that Christ Jesus is in Heaven beside his father as flesh and blood.

I believe his Spirit is, as is his soul (You have to be a tripartite believer to understand)

On the cross flesh and blood Jesus said (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I ENTRUST MY SPIRIT.” And having said this, He died.

His flesh went nowhere. Except into His tomb. And those who saw him afterward he was in His Glorified body. Except those who saw Him immediately at the tomb.
Remember he said to Mary do not hold on to me because I have not ascended to my Father? WHY?
I think that had to happen for him to either get a new glorified,or the one he was in would be glorified and
human touch might either contaminate... or interfere. (strictly my thoughts0

Anyway, I cannot answer if he currently has a physical form in Heaven or just a spiritual one and that his glorified body, will be for the completion of the Fathers plan, for ever and ever once he comes again. (Just like our rotten flesh will be left behind for our own glorified bodies.

DO NOT poopoo that idea as it is as valid as many that I read on here

And yes, I know this is likely at odds with Jack Cottrell . I dont care

.But I firmly believe the Bible supports the Son was with the Father as in the Godhead (Trinity) from Eternity past.

thank you for your response. I think we are probably not really too far apart in our thinking. Now with that, I disagree with a number of things that you said there, but I won't bother to address them all. However, a couple of things - first, there is no indication that Jesus' resurrection body was a "glorified" body. In fact, it seems to me that He stressed in his meeting with Thomas in John 20 that his resurrected body was the same body, though somewhat repaired, as the body he went to the cross in. Second, Paul explicitly states that the resurrection body will not be a physical body, but rather spiritual (1 Cor 15:35-49).

None of that has much, if anything, to do with what is meant by Jesus as the Son of God. And regardless of that, it is clear to me that the second person of the trinity, whatever name or epithet you choose to assign to Him, is distinct from both the Father and the Holy Spirit and is eternal as are the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeInChrist]

so jesus was the father

but not the son

but the word calls him the son.



now we have confusion.

Boy, so glad there is not a mother in this. Whew....

 

[civic]

@civic

I used the exact same argument that you used to to prove Jesus being a Son before he acutely was conceived and born as such. Neither of them existed as such before they was conceived and born.

You said and I quote: "In fact John said 2 times Jesus who was born 6 months after John existed before him."

To this "I agree", Jesus was indeed before John, as the everlasting Father of all things! Per Isaiah 9:6, but not as Jesus, the Son of God.....The I AM THAT I AM.

Are you saying the Father and Son are the same person ?

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

Is the Son the same or different than the man Jesus who lived about 30+ years some 2000 years ago? I realize that some think that man, a physical human being, still exists in heaven. I do not. I do believe that the divine being who took on the flesh and blood of a human being 2000 years ago is eternal but is no longer a physical human being.

Jim, the Lord Jesus arose from the dead with a glorified body of POWER. Without saying very much now for lack of time, I will only mentioned two or three points.

This glorified body had the power to appear and disappear at will. It had power to think to be somewhere and then appear instantly. When the Lord Jesus left this world in Acts one, a cloud received him out of their sight. Here is what I believe: He could have just will to leave and then appear in glory far above all ~but, he chose to simply be lifted up and once out of their sight he then appear in glory inti the third heaven far above all. Ist Corinthians fifteen reveals some things to us, and then the gospel in their latter chapters reveal some thing to us. Is Jesus just sitting waiting to return? We do not know since we have never been part of that world, and some things are hidden from us. But, I do believe saints have access to be in a body of power whenever God wills them to be so, like he did to Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration.

Trust all is going well with you.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Are you saying the Father and Son are the same person ?

Brother, here is what I understand and believe. No, they are not post Creation, mainly the NT ~ before.... there was only one LORD God, period.

 

[civic]

@civic

Brother, here is what I understand and believe. No, they are not post Creation, mainly the NT ~ before.... there was only one LORD God, period.

So before creation who existed?

Was it One singular person who was the one Lord God ?

Please spell it out thanks .

 

[Aeliana]

Is the Son the same or different than the man Jesus who lived about 30+ years some 2000 years ago? I realize that some think that man, a physical human being, still exists in heaven. I do not. I do believe that the divine being who took on the flesh and blood of a human being 2000 years ago is eternal but is no longer a physical human being.

Well, when we see Him face to face we will know. But the bible tells us That Jesus appeared in the upper room on Easter evening, after his resurrection, to his fearful disciples who had locked themselves in. But Jesus"came and stood among them".

He appeared to them a second time a week later, also in the upper room, to show Thomas the wounds on his body and to prove he was not a ghost but had a physical body, according to John 20:19-31.

So, in Christian theology, Jesus has a glorified body today, a concept that stems from His resurrection where His human body was transformed into a perfected, immortal, and spiritual form, no longer bound by the limitations of earthly existence but capable of appearing and disappearing, passing through walls, and being present in multiple places at once. This glorification applies to His ongoing human nature, providing a blueprint for believers who will also receive glorified bodies in the future resurrection.

We are being transformed into His image:

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18

 

[FreeInChrist]

@civic

Brother, here is what I understand and believe. No, they are not post Creation, mainly the NT ~ before.... there was only one LORD God, period.

I am confused again.

" there was only one LORD God, period."

So you deny John 1 when he said "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
from your choice KJV clearly said there were two.?

 

[civic]

I am confused again.

" there was only one LORD God, period."

So you deny John 1 when he said "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
from your choice KJV clearly said there were two.?

Yes who was with God that was also God but not the same person.

That verse eliminates the possibility of Unitarianism and Modalism

 

[Peterlag]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that is not a theological problem; rather, it is a semantics problem. The real problem is deeper than what is presented there as the debatable question. Man, that is the human being, is composed of a body and a spirit. The man Jesus, likewise, was composed of a body and a spirit. The body was that living mass of flesh generated by the impregnation of Mary by the Holy Spirit. So then, I believe the real question that must be answered is, "What (or who) was the spirit that, together with the body of flesh, constituted the man Jesus?"

In Hebrews 2 we read, 14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

Who or what is the "he himself" that partook of the flesh and blood? Whatever or whoever that is, is eternal. Assign whatever name you wish to that entity of "he himself" that you like. Preferably for me it would be biblical.

The part he partook was Mary's side.

 

[Peterlag]

1. God in his perfect form can not die
2. God in his perfect form can not sin
3. because of A and B, God can not pay for the sin of mankind, or claim he lived sinless and fulfilled the law in his form of God.

so he had to take the form of Man. Set aside all his diety (the characteristics you mentioned) so he in perfect love could die for all creation.

The problem you run into is if Jesus was Marely a created being, how could he take on the sins of all mankind.. Let alone, every sin I will ever be guilty of in my entire life on this earth?

The idea that God can limit what He knows or experiences as God is not taught or explained in Scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

Is the Son the same or different than the man Jesus who lived about 30+ years some 2000 years ago? I realize that some think that man, a physical human being, still exists in heaven. I do not. I do believe that the divine being who took on the flesh and blood of a human being 2000 years ago is eternal but is no longer a physical human being.

Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

 

[360watt]

The question is if Jesus ever was not God, how could He take on the sin of the world?

You may say God could not take on sin.. but neither could mortal man.

You can't have Jesus having all that power to take on and forgive sin, and be lesser than God.

Otherwise, as i've said before, you are left with men having the ability to attain godhood or be some kind of semi-god.. which is foreign to scripture.