Moses and Jesus taught free will

[civic]

The problem is you free-willers go from "God is love" to "A loving God would never..." and then go on to contradict what scripture says.

God is love is a true statement about Gods nature, character, being. It’s Who Gos is.

God is hate, wrath, unloving is a false statement about His nature, character, being. It’s not who God is.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Frank Russell]

The problem is you free-willers go from "God is love" to "A loving God would never..." and then go on to contradict what scripture says.

The problem with calvinists is they cannot see a third option.

Everything must exist within the invented dichotomy

 

[civic]

Freedom to choose, freedom of the will

1 Corinthians 10:23
You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial.

We can choose freely to make decisions ( choices ) by our own wills to either benefit others or not. That is up to man, not God.

Paul has the same idea below in 1 Cor 6:12- "Everything is permissible for me," but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me," but I will not be mastered by anything.

Paul once again talks about our freedom, our wills here :

1 Cor 8:9- But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Paul has the same idea here in Rom 14:19- Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.

So its clear from scripture we are equipped, have a will that is free to make choices to build others up or not to - the choice is ours to make freely. Oh and there are plenty other scriptures that are on this very same topic from all the epistles and teaching of Jesus- He said if any man is WILLING let him come after Me. This implies the freedom of a man to willingly comes after and follow Jesus.

The OT confirms this principle in Josh 24- “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord”

They could "choose" whether or not to obey the Lord in Deut 28:1-2: If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God”

A couple chapters later in Deut 30:19-20- “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”

Freedom of choice, the will is free to choose !

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

There is only one group in all Christendom that rejects the above , the followers of Calvin / Luther who were followers of Augustine, the Reformers.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Love is one of God's attributes. You don't just inject into other verses. Wrath is another attribute. Shall I inject that into verses, too?

Yeah. God only uses one at a time.......

 

[civic]

Yeah. God only uses one at a time.......

Lol

 

[Frank Russell]

There is only one group in all Christendom that rejects the above , the followers of Calvin / Luther who were followers of Augustine, the Reformers.

Yeah Augustine, inventor of unfortunate doctrines such as eternal torment.

 

[civic]

Yeah Augustine, inventor of unfortunate doctrines such as eternal torment.

Well he did get a few things right

 

[Frank Russell]

Well he did get a few things right

I find when any doctrine using scripture says one thing and another doctrine equally using scrupture says another thing .. and both things are the polar opposite of one another ..

There is most likely a loss in perspective, something to keep in mind at the very least.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I find when any doctrine using scripture says one thing and another doctrine equally using scrupture says another thing .. and both things are the polar opposite of one another ..

There is most likely a loss in perspective, something to keep in mind at the very least.

That's my reason for disagreeing with the free-willers. They take "God is love" and then say "these other scriptures can't possibly mean what they plainly say because God is love."

 

[civic]

That's my reason for disagreeing with the free-willers. They take "God is love" and then say "these other scriptures can't possibly mean what they plainly say because God is love."

Please define love from a biblical meaning not a secular or philosophical one. Thanks

 

[Frank Russell]

That's my reason for disagreeing with the free-willers. They take "God is love" and then say "these other scriptures can't possibly mean what they plainly say because God is love."

I recall passages that mention important details in passing such as the law being mediated by angels.

God indeed is love.

 

[Frank Russell]

The passage that says God is Love also states that this love is perfected or matured in us so we can have confidence on the day of judgment.

Thus, if God is not love, then no confidence on said day.

Furthermore, nowhere is it said that God is Wrath, and this Wrath is perfected in us so we can have confidence on the day of judgment: Paul and James both have passages stating the opposite.

 

[civic]

The passage that says God is Love also states that this love is perfected or matured in us so we can have confidence on the day of judgment.

Thus, if God is not love, then no confidence on said day.

Furthermore, nowhere is it said that God is Wrath, and this Wrath is perfected in us so we can have confidence on the day of judgment: Paul and James both have passages stating the opposite.

Yes some try and equate love and wrath as if God is both and He is not.

 

[Frank Russell]

Yes some try and equate love and wrath as if God is both and He is not.

Indeed, the kindness of God leads us to repentance, and mercy triumphs over judgment.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Indeed, the kindness of God leads us to repentance, and mercy triumphs over judgment.

Correct. Some translations use "goodness".....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes some try and equate love and wrath as if God is both and He is not.

It is God's Love for those being conformed in the image of Christ that produces wrath against the enemies of God.

God first loved all men. He commited that Love toward all men that He died for all men. Those who become the enemies of God are damned based upon their rejection of Jesus and their subsequent hatred of God.

God leads with Love. There is no wrath without God first loving.

 

[makesends]

Those passages show God never planned those sins to occur.

How so? Seems to me that one would only think so from an assumption that self-determinism is the default fact.

 

[makesends]

God Created us with a free will that is still in effect. The sovereignty of God is just as strong, if not stronger, in a world where human beings have the power of choice between alternatives. One reason for saying this is that God is the one who freely—sovereignly—decided to give this power to those he created to bear his image.

I'm guessing from the general tenor of this site, and indeed of the general mindset of current Christendom, that by "power of choice between alternatives" you mean (if, for example, there are two) 50/50 chance of choosing either one —that both are actually possible.

When a person chooses for or against God he is fulfilling God’s will that he have the choice.

When a person chooses for or against God he is fulfilling God’s will (plan, decree) concerning that choice.

 

[makesends]

I came to the Doctrines of Grace the same way ... reading scripture and studying Wesleyan Theology.
I finally reached 5 conclusions on my own: (Credobaptism) and 4 Biblical Truths that are close enough to the Doctrines of Grace.

[It still feels like NONE OF MY BUSINESS who Jesus died for besides me.]

I agree, yet, without even knowing which ones are "the objects of his mercy", I find somehow that I love them all.