Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Bubba]

It is the baptism en the holy Ghost which places one into the body of Christ and is therefore saving

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I still think it's nothing but the blood that saves us. And then if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth Jesus is the Lord we are saved. Problem is placing too much emphasis on baptism turns it into a work of man. And then pride enters into the salvation process.

 

[Red Baker]

It is the baptism en the holy Ghost which places one into the body of Christ and is therefore saving

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Tom~Please prove that 1st Corinthians 12:13 is saying what you think it is teaching. No scripture stands alone in teaching a biblical doctrine, and 1st Corinthians 12:13 stands alone outside of the context of what is being said in chapter 12 of 1st Corinthians.

See post #45 above where we dealt with 1st Corinthians 12:13.

 

[TomL]

Tom~Please prove that 1st Corinthians 12:13 is saying what you think it is teaching. No scripture stands alone in teaching a biblical doctrine, and 1st Corinthians 12:13 stands alone outside of the context of what is being said in chapter 12 of 1st Corinthians.

See post #45 above where we dealt with 1st Corinthians 12:13.

See previously posted op

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/baptism-en-the-holy-ghost.1275/post-49027

See also

Acts 11:16–18 (ESV) — 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

God had testified as to the gentiles by the baptism en the Holy Ghost

that they were accepted of God

 

[Doug Brents]

Mark 16:16

"He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned."

The key here is the "BELIEVETH" part in receiving salvation, not the baptism part.

There are many in Christendom that tout the work of water baptism is when a person receives salvation but this is against the plan put forth by God through Jesus ! His plan is the receiving of the gospel, believing the gospel to be his truth and through faith accepting this truth and being saved.

Belief is very, very important. But it is only half of what Jesus said was important in this verse. If we pick and choose our way through God's Word, and only accept the parts that we like, then we risk missing God's blessing and glory. If we only believe the Gospel, but fail to take the actions that it says lead to salvation, then we are no better than the demons who believe that there is one God, yet are not saved.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Belief is very, very important. But it is only half of what Jesus said was important in this verse. If we pick and choose our way through God's Word, and only accept the parts that we like, then we risk missing God's blessing and glory. If we only believe the Gospel, but fail to take the actions that it says lead to salvation, then we are no better than the demons who believe that there is one God, yet are not saved.

Oh, I am not opposed to the obedience of righteousness.
However some think the action takes care of the gift of God's salvation, not the believing and living of it.
In fact too many stress baptism as the capstone of faith when many sinners are baptized being just wet sinners.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh, I am not opposed to the obedience of righteousness.
However some think the action takes care of the gift of God's salvation, not the believing and living of it.
In fact too many stress baptism as the capstone of faith when many sinners are baptized being just wet sinners.

The fact, and I do not deny it, that there are many who are baptized who remain "just wet sinners" does not change the facts of Scripture's mandate of baptism bringing about our reception of salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do these verses tell us that there is absolutely no action that man must take to receive God's grace? No, they do not. If they did, then they would make Rom 10:9-10 a lie, because there we are told, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Confession "with the mouth" is without a doubt a physical act. And we are told clearly that this action "results in" receiving salvation. Thus, a physical action is required to receive salvation. But this is not the only physical action that results in receiving salvation. Mark 16:16 says that baptism also results in being saved, and Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7 both say that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins (we die to sin) and we are resurrected with Christ.

 

[TomL]

The fact, and I do not deny it, that there are many who are baptized who remain "just wet sinners" does not change the facts of Scripture's mandate of baptism bringing about our reception of salvation.

Do these verses tell us that there is absolutely no action that man must take to receive God's grace? No, they do not. If they did, then they would make Rom 10:9-10 a lie, because there we are told, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Confession "with the mouth" is without a doubt a physical act. And we are told clearly that this action "results in" receiving salvation. Thus, a physical action is required to receive salvation. But this is not the only physical action that results in receiving salvation. Mark 16:16 says that baptism also results in being saved, and Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7 both say that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins (we die to sin) and we are resurrected with Christ.

In fact many verses show salvation upon faith

Acts 11:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[mailmandan]

In fact many verses show salvation upon faith

Acts 11:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Amen! There are multiple passages of scripture which make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now we don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus baptism? Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

 

[Doug Brents]

In fact many verses show salvation upon faith

Absolutely, we are saved when we exhibit faith. Faith, not intellectual assent, brings about our receiving salvation. But then, you seem to equate faith with intellectual assent instead of acknowledging it to be, as Scripture defines it, the action filled, obedient, doing of what God says "leads to" receiving His salvation.

Acts 11:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

You suppose Cornelius to have been saved when he was "baptized with the Holy Ghost"? What gift did the Apostles receive "at the beginning"? The miraculous wonders done through them by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles already had the indwelling as we are told in John 20:22. So the indwelling is not in view when Peter talks about them being "baptized with the Holy Ghost", only the miraculous working of the Spirit. Then when Cornelius was likewise "baptized with the Holy Ghost", he also only received the miraculous working of the Spirit. He did not receive the indwelling until his sins were washed away in water baptism.

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

"Believe" here is the word "pistis" which means "faith", not just intellectual assent (belief). If one does not do what is commanded, then one does not "believe" the promises, and thus his faith is dead, worthless, ineffectual, meaningless. If you believe on the Lord, then you will obey the Lord. If you do not obey, then you do not believe. And what does He say? "He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

 

[TomL]

Absolutely, we are saved when we exhibit faith. Faith, not intellectual assent, brings about our receiving salvation. But then, you seem to equate faith with intellectual assent instead of acknowledging it to be, as Scripture defines it, the action filled, obedient, doing of what God says "leads to" receiving His salvation.

Sorry you are adding to scripture which states we are saved when we believe (have faith)

Nope intellectual assent and faith are different things

Faith involves trust and commitment intellectual assent just refers to acceptance of facts

Your claim is false

You suppose Cornelius to have been saved when he was "baptized with the Holy Ghost"? What gift did the Apostles receive "at the beginning"? The miraculous wonders done through them by the Holy Spirit. The Apostles already had the indwelling as we are told in John 20:22. So the indwelling is not in view when Peter talks about them being "baptized with the Holy Ghost", only the miraculous working of the Spirit. Then when Cornelius was likewise "baptized with the Holy Ghost", he also only received the miraculous working of the Spirit. He did not receive the indwelling until his sins were washed away in water baptism.

Nope they received the Spirit himself along with the miraculous gift

Note far more than the apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost'

Acts 1:15 (ESV) — 15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said,

Acts 2:6–11 (ESV) — 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry you are adding to scripture which states we are saved when we believe (have faith)

No, I am not adding to Scripture. You are subtracting from Scripture. We are saved when we have faith. And faith is not a mental process. Faith is the visible evidence of our inner conviction. If you don't exhibit the evidence, then there is no inner conviction. Sure, you think the chair can hold your weight, but we don't know if you have faith in the chair until you put your butt in it with all your weight on it.

It is the faith, the surrender to God in baptism, that brings about salvation.

Nope intellectual assent and faith are different things

Faith involves trust and commitment intellectual assent just refers to acceptance of facts

Your claim is false

That is exactly my claim. If all you have is intellectual assent, then you don't really trust, you don't really believe, you don't receive salvation. But if you have faith, then you surrender to the one in whom you believe, and obey what He says do. He said if you surrender to baptism then you will be washed white as snow and have all blemished of sin removed. If you don't surrender to baptism then you don't really believe in Him.

Nope they received the Spirit himself along with the miraculous gift

You cannot do miracles through the Holy Spirit without having Him with you. But like we see in the OT, the Holy Spirit was not indwelling them but only working through them. They did not receive the indwelling until they were baptized in water as we see commanded in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16.

Note far more than the apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost'

Acts 1:15 (ESV) — 15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said,

Acts 2:6–11 (ESV) — 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”

Absolutely all 120 received the miraculous gifts of the Spirit on Pentecost. The Apostles already had the indwelling; the rest may or may not have, we don't know. It appears that many more than just the Apostles were together when Jesus breathed on them and gave them the indwelling (John 20:19-20). No, Thomas was not with them, but it was not just the Apostles that were there.

No one received the Holy Spirit's indwelling until Jesus was Glorified, and now we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through water baptism, because that is the point at which we enter into union with Christ (Gal 3:26-27). We receive the indwelling when we have our sins cut from us (Col 2:11-14), and it is He who works in us to bring us new life and new union with God (Rom 6:4).

 

[TomL]

No, I am not adding to Scripture. You are subtracting from Scripture. We are saved when we have faith. And faith is not a mental process. Faith is the visible evidence of our inner conviction. If you don't exhibit the evidence, then there is no inner conviction. Sure, you think the chair can hold your weight, but we don't know if you have faith in the chair until you put your butt in it with all your weight on it.

Sorry there is not such meaning for faith

Faith is trust - One believe and entrust onseself to the object of ones faithm

It is the faith, the surrender to God in baptism, that brings about salvation.

That is exactly my claim. If all you have is intellectual assent, then you don't really trust, you don't really believe, you don't receive salvation. But if you have faith, then you surrender to the one in whom you believe, and obey what He says do. He said if you surrender to baptism then you will be washed white as snow and have all blemished of sin removed. If you don't surrender to baptism then you don't really believe in Him.

Faith brings salvation not water

John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:39 (ESV) — 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

You cannot do miracles through the Holy Spirit without having Him with you. But like we see in the OT, the Holy Spirit was not indwelling them but only working through them. They did not receive the indwelling until they were baptized in water as we see commanded in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16.

There was no indwelling until Christ's glorification

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Nor were they baptised en the spirit

Cornelius and the gentiles were baptised en the Spirit had received the spirit and life all before water baptism

Absolutely all 120 received the miraculous gifts of the Spirit on Pentecost. The Apostles already had the indwelling; the rest may or may not have, we don't know. It appears that many more than just the Apostles were together when Jesus breathed on them and gave them the indwelling (John 20:19-20). No, Thomas was not with them, but it was not just the Apostles that were there.

It was more than the miraculous gifts it was the reception of the Spirit himself

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

u

No one received the Holy Spirit's indwelling until Jesus was Glorified, and now we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through water baptism, because that is the point at which we enter into union with Christ (Gal 3:26-27). We receive the indwelling when we have our sins cut from us (Col 2:11-14), and it is He who works in us to bring us new life and new union with God (Rom 6:4).

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry there is not such meaning for faith
Faith is trust - One believe and entrust onseself to the object of ones faithm

Show me that definition in Scripture. It is not there. The definition of faith is, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." If there is no evidence, then there is no reality to the trust.
Do you really trust if you do not surrender yourself to the object of your faith? No.
Do you really trust if you do not let go of your will, and give yourself over to the commands of the one you say you trust? No.

Faith brings salvation not water

John 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

John 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:39 (ESV) — 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

There are many more passages that only mention faith (belief) than there are that mention water baptism. But those passages are not more Scripture, more holy, more God's Word than are 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, etc. You cannot take all of these passages you cited and ignore the passages that say salvation is received when we are water baptized.

There was no indwelling until Christ's glorification

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And Christ was glorified at His resurrection, which had occurred before Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

Nor were they baptised en the spirit
Cornelius and the gentiles were baptised en the Spirit had received the spirit and life all before water baptism

Wrong, they had received the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit as the Apostles did at the beginning (at Pentecost). They did not receive the indwelling until they were water baptized later that day.

It was more than the miraculous gifts it was the reception of the Spirit himself

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

"Just as we did", when? At the beginning (Acts 11:15). What was the beginning? Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples in the upper room. And what did they receive? The ability to speak in tongues. And what did Cornelius receive when the Holy Spirit fell on him? "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God". Same gift received, just as Paul says, but not the indwelling.

 

[TomL]

Show me that definition in Scripture. It is not there. The definition of faith is, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." If there is no evidence, then there is no reality to the trust.
Do you really trust if you do not surrender yourself to the object of your faith? No.
Do you really trust if you do not let go of your will, and give yourself over to the commands of the one you say you trust? No.

There are many more passages that only mention faith (belief) than there are that mention water baptism. But those passages are not more Scripture, more holy, more God's Word than are 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, etc. You cannot take all of these passages you cited and ignore the passages that say salvation is received when we are water baptized.

And Christ was glorified at His resurrection, which had occurred before Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

Wrong, they had received the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit as the Apostles did at the beginning (at Pentecost). They did not receive the indwelling until they were water baptized later that day.

"Just as we did", when? At the beginning (Acts 11:15). What was the beginning? Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples in the upper room. And what did they receive? The ability to speak in tongues. And what did Cornelius receive when the Holy Spirit fell on him? "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God". Same gift received, just as Paul says, but not the indwelling.

You appear to not understand faith

πίστις -εως, ἡ; (pistis), N. trust; faith. Heb. equiv. fr. LXX: אֱמוּנָה (13), אֱמֶת (5), אמן 1 (1), אֲמָנָה 2 (1).

Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Septuagint (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; inscr., pap. LXX; Ep. Arist. 37; Philo, Joseph,) faith, trust.
1. that which causes trust and faith—a. faithfulness, reliability


William Arndt, F. Wilbur Gingrich, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 662.

and apparently not the phrase receive the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry

Acts 10:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

They did indeed receive the Holy Spirit "JUST AS WE DID" How did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at the beginning? In power, tongues, and praise. How did the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? In power, tongues, and praise. Just receiving the Holy Spirit is not salvation. He can bring salvation, but He can also bring only tongues, wisdom, miracles, etc. You are reading into the Scripture what you want to find there. Not taking it for what it says.

 

[TomL]

They did indeed receive the Holy Spirit "JUST AS WE DID" How did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at the beginning? In power, tongues, and praise. How did the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit? In power, tongues, and praise. Just receiving the Holy Spirit is not salvation. He can bring salvation, but He can also bring only tongues, wisdom, miracles, etc. You are reading into the Scripture what you want to find there. Not taking it for what it says.

Read the words

What did they receive

Answer they received the Spirit not they received a gift of the Spirit


Believe scripture

John 14:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Receiving the Spirit and the Spirit being in you (indwelling) are equated

 

[Doug Brents]

Read the words

What did they receive

Answer they received the Spirit not they received a gift of the Spirit


Believe scripture

John 14:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Receiving the Spirit and the Spirit being in you (indwelling) are equated

Receiving the Spirit and the Spirit indwelling you are not equated.
Bezalel had the Holy Spirit (Exo 31:3).
Moses had the Holy Spirit (Numbers 11:17, 25-26, 29).
Joshua had the Holy Spirit (Numbers 27:18-19).
Othniel had the Holy Spirit (Judges 3:9-10)
Gideon had the Holy Spirit (Judges 6:34)
Epitaph had the Holy Spirit (Judges 11:29)
Samson had the Holy Spirit (Judges 13:25
And all this before the indwelling was possible, because the indwelling did not begin until after Jesus was glorified.

Just because one has the Holy Spirit does not indicate his salvation. The Holy Spirit can manifest in numerous ways (1 Cor 12:4-11), and none of these require the indwelling. The indwelling is new in the NT era, and is in addition to all these other gifts.

 

[Truther]

Mark 16:16

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Introduction:

A couple of points before we begin. It is our duty to read the scriptures and give their sense, without which, it is impossible to leave them, with the correct interpretation that the Spirit of God intended for them to have. Truth is hidden within the scriptures from the wise, specially, those ones who believe that they are and glory in their wisdom. Truth is hidden in seemly simply and plain words, and those people who just superficially read the scriptures (which many do) leave with believing that they have the mind of God on certain truths, and the truth is~they would not know the truth if it hit them right between the eyes.

I have quoted this verse many times, yet I know that its importance cannot be over emphasized, because this is the main tool that must be used to come to the truth on any subject, regardless how simple, and clear cut the scriptures seem to be, unless we do as Nehemiah and Ezra, and Paul, we will never be able to come to the knowledge of truth, on a given subject, be whatever it be.

Nehemiah 8:8

"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

This verse is very close to what Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15. So, we cannot minimize how important this godly deed is for us to arrive at the Holy Ghost's true interpretation.

Another point we need to make is that no one can privately interpret the scriptures. The Bible is not subject to private interpretations. It is it's own interpreter. How could man even think that he of himself can figure out or define what God's Word really means? Man can't even understand the common cold, and can He understand the mind of God? It is only by being led by 'the Spirit of God' in the careful reading and receiving what He Himself has inspired written, do we in spirit have the mind of Christ to understand. Then is it made manifest to us that the Bible is it's own dictionary, it's own interpreter, and it's own witness. It defines itself, it interprets itself, and by the Holy Spirit it witnesses to it's own validity and truthfulness. In plain language, only the Bible can define what it means. And it does that by the Spirit working within us as we search through it. Seeking the truth is in 'receiving' all of what scripture says and ignoring none. It is in comparing scripture with scripture and finding what is in agreement, and reconciling all that appears in opposition. For the most basic of sound Biblical hermeneutics is that, 'no scripture contradicts itself, nor can it be privately interpreted.' The scriptures can only be our 'authority' if we allow it to define itself and interpret itself. If we attempt to define or interpret it ourselves, we will inevitably come to erroneous conclusions, for we are not qualified.

There is more in the Bible than can be learned in one lifetime, but it is not as complicated or as hard to discern as some would have you believe. God didn't inspire the Bible written for scholars, He wrote it for all of us babes. When we look at Mark 16:16, let the Bible be the 'authority' in interpretation, and let us allow the holy scriptures tell us what God is truly teaching, and how we are to understand the Spirit's testimony. And may the Lord who is Gracious above all guide us all into His marvelous truths.

To be continue..

In other words, don't believe this?....

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...

 

[Truther]

Mark 16:9-20 is too unreliable of a text to base any doctrine on.

Acts 2:38 also?

 

[Fred]

Acts 2:38 also?

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eli-insurance-policy.589/page-3#post-25287