Truther
Well-known member
You said all that to make Mark 16:16 go away?
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
First you failed to address the argument made
Read the words
What did they receive
Answer they received the Spirit not they received a gift of the Spirit
Believe scripture
John 14:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Receiving the Spirit and the Spirit being in you (indwelling) are equated
next you err in that possession of the Spirit marks one as being in Christ
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Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Finally No one in the Old Testament was permanently indwelt. Leaders, prophets, workmen were given the Spirit for their service. They were not given the Spirit in the New covenant manner'
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John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Truther
Well-known member
Says who? Scholars? Are they smarter than the scriptures? Can they make it go away? Do you follow those that makes scripture go away? Don’t you think it is fishy It has to do with doing away with the enforcement of baptism? Who would think of such a sinister idea?
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Just because you don't agree with the answer, doesn't mean that I didn't answer your argument. The people listed in the passages I posted had the Holy Spirit, not just His gifts. They had Him, but He didn't indwell them. So too with Cornelius. He had the Holy Spirit, but he was not yet indwelt.
No, they are not the same. You can have the Holy Spirit (miraculous working) and not have Him indwelling you, and you can have Him indwelling you but not have His miraculous works.
Possession of the indwelling does, but having His miraculous working does not equate to salvation.
Exactly, there was no indwelling in the OT, but all those people (and many more) had the Holy Spirit. But them having the Holy Spirit was not an indication of their salvation, and neither was it for Cornelius until He was baptized into Christ in verse 47-48.
You assume it is Scripture.
Sorry receiving a person is not receiving a gify from a person
and the verses
John 14:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Why did Jesus say that the Holy Spirit will be (fut. tense) in them? Because in Old Testament times the Spirit came on some believers for special enablement, but after Pentecost He indwells every believer permanently (Rom. 8:9; 1 Cor. 12:13).11 Edwin A. Blum, “John,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck; vol. 2; Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 2323.
John 7:38–39 (NASB 2020) — 38 The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
equates receiving the Spirit with the Spirit in your innermost being - that is indwelling
John explained that the “living water” (v. 38) was the coming gift of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit within a believer satisfies his need of God, and provides him with regeneration, guidance, and empowerment. In the earliest Greek manuscripts, the words, Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, are simply, “for there was not yet Spirit.” This cannot be taken in an absolute sense since the Spirit had actively worked among people in the Old Testament era. Jesus referred to the special baptizing, sealing, and indwelling work of the Spirit in the Church Age, which would start on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:5, 8). Jesus said He would “send the Spirit” to His followers (John 15:26; 16:7). “The Spirit had not [yet] been given” to indwell believers permanently (cf. Ps. 51:11). That happened after Jesus was glorified, that is after His death, resurrection, and Ascension. 11 Edwin A. Blum, “John,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck; vol. 2; Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 2301–302.
Notes for Verse 39
Verse 39. this spake he of the Spirit—who, by His direct personal agency, opens up this spring of living waters in the human spirit (John 3:6), and by His indwelling in the renewed soul ensures their unfailing flow.
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
The Holy Spirit applies the benefits of salvation to those whom he indwells. The indwelling of the Spirit is both corporate and individual; Christ’s church is his temple, as are individual Christians. In regeneration, the Spirit gives new life to the believer, birthing a new creation. In sanctification, God the Spirit transforms Christians into the image and likeness of Christ by developing within them the fruits of the Spirit. The Spirit also imparts divine power to his church through spiritual gifts and supernatural endowment. This power is given for the furtherance of God’s salvific mission of grace in the world. Finally, the indwelling Spirit is a “guarantee” or “pledge” of the fullness of salvation to be experienced at the final glorification of Christian believers (Eph 1:13–14)1
1 Susanne Calhoun, “The Spirit’s Indwelling,” in Lexham Survey of Theology, ed. Mark Ward et al. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018).
Living water—As a true spring is ever supplied with water from the great deep, with which it has communication, so shall the soul of the genuine believer be supplied with light, life, love, and liberty, and all the other graces of the indwelling Spirit, from the indwelling Christ. The Jews frequently compare the gifts and influences of the Holy Spirit to water in general—to rain, fountains, wells, rivers, etc., etc. The Scriptures abound in this metaphor. Psalm 36:8, 9; Isaiah 44:3, 4; Joel 2:23.
Adam Clarke's Commentary.
missing the point
receiving the spirit does not mean to obtain a gift from the Spirit
It is the reception of the Spirit himself - the indwelling
When the spirit comes he can also impart a spiritual gift
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Truther
Well-known member
You assume it is not. Your Bible is flawed to you…as you black out sections
This is one verse, that should be put alongside the many verses that say believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
Almost the entire book of John has no baptism and it is about knowing you can have eternal life.
To the verse itself..as mailmandan said.. the opposite of this verse is not in the Bible.. 'don't believe and be baptized and you won't be saved'
'Don't believe and you won't be saved' in other verses.. IS in the bible
Truther
Well-known member
Do you think that Jesus was saying that unbelievers will be baptized per the verse?
They believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, first. Then baptism by immersion in water afterward if possible. A believer may not get baptised.. that does not mean they don't have eternal life. But again.. this verse does not stand on it's own.
(Act 16:30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
(Act 16:31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
They got baptised later.. after this. They believed first, and were saved. Then later baptised.
(1Jn 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John wrote this to believers.. and baptism is barely mentioned elsewhere in this book.
Immersion in water is just getting wet. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is getting converted! The immersion will represent this salvation.. symbolise it.. but it won't DO it.
Do you read anywhere he that believeth and is not baptised will not be saved?
Frank Russell
Well-known member
As Jesus taught, we know false prophecies by their fruit.
If you believe Mark 16:9-20 to truly be the words of Jesus Christ, then feel free to test it out and get a cobra to bite you, and drink some cyanide while you're at it. As long as there is "one true believer" among you, you can be healed by them laying on hands .. according to the prophecy.
If you believe Mark 16:9-20 to truly be the words of Jesus Christ, then feel free to test it out and get a cobra to bite you, and drink some cyanide while you're at it. As long as there is "one true believer" among you, you can be healed by them laying on hands .. according to the prophecy.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
In the case of the Holy Spirit, it is.
He indwells every saved person, but Cornelius was not saved yet; his sins had not yet been forgiven, as that happens during water baptism according to Col 2 and Rom 6.
The Spirit cannot be compelled, He is received as a gift from God. But receiving Him is not always receiving His indwelling. Just because someone has "received" Him, does not necessitate his salvation.
None of that has anything to do with this. Yes, the Spirit comes to indwell those who are saved. But Cornelius was not yet saved when the Spirit fell on him in the power of tongues.
No, receiving the Spirit is not necessarily receiving the indwelling, even after Pentecost. Yes, the Spirit indwells all those who are in the Church (saved), but Cornelius was not yet saved when the Spirit fell on him. He was saved, his sins washed away, regenerated, resurrected with Christ, received the indwelling of the Spirit, when he was baptized in water as Peter commanded shortly after the Spirit fell on them in power.
And the Samaritans who had been baptized into Christ had received the indwelling of the Spirit. We know this because in Acts 8:13-14 we are told that the Samaritans had "received the Word of God", and even Simon (the sorcerer) had been baptized into Christ. But they had not received miraculous power from Him until the Peter and John came and laid hands on them.
Truther
Well-known member
Believing is the qualifier for baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Believing doesn’t replace baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Christendom really goofed it up.
Truther
Well-known member
I read that he that believeth will obviously be baptized. He that believeth not will obviously not be. Jesus gets it too.
Truther
Well-known member
What version do you use that eliminates baptism? The Easy Believism Version?EBV?
Says a whole lot that you have to depend upon uninspired writings to support your heresy.
