civic
Well-known member
The waters of baptism save no one- the baptism of the Spirit is who and what saves, not water unless you want to make a case the water represents the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
mailmandan
Well-known member
Only some truth mixed with a lot of error?
Do you believe Mark 16:16 teaches that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation?
civic
Well-known member
Then we have a big problem Houston . Paul said he was glad he baptized any of the Corinthians . Major dilemma people .Only some truth mixed with a lot of error?
Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Do you interpret the other things Christ mentioned as you do with what you asserted above?
Does water baptism saved anyone legally? Absolutely not. Is there a salvation for one that hears, believes and is baptized in water? Yes, it is a practical salvation of having a true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ when administered properly~and we will add.....the only baptism truly mentioned is the scriptures, even though baptism is used in different sense in God's word we agree, but truly only one.Only some truth mixed with a lot of error?
civic~We agree as far as legally speaking, only the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ saves us legally.
There is not a verse in the holy scriptures that speaks of the baptism of the Spirit in reference to being born again, no where. And we will add, there are no verses exhorting believers to be baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Pentecostals would have folks to believe.
1st Corinthians 12:13 will not give anyone support to teach such doctrines, if that is the scripture you are thinking of.
Consider: The formation of a local church is the work of the Spirit putting all the members into one body.
What forms various members into one spiritual body to be used by the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 12:12,14)? A spirit in man makes him a living soul and animates his bodily members (James 2:26). A church is more than an organization: it is a spiritual organism with life from the Spirit. All the members of a church are united together spiritually by the Holy Spirit of God. God dwells in a local church by the Presence of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:22; Ist Timothy 3:15). The Spirit takes spiritual children and makes them living stones in His temple (Ist Peter 2:5).
The body here is obviously the local church, for it is all that is mentioned before and after. Those exalting a universal church as the only church that counts interpret this verse to be teaching infant baptism making church members and national citizens, simultaneously.
Paul is writing the local church at Corinth, and he is dealing with gifts in a local church. He will tell them plainly in a few verses that he is talking specifically about them (Ist Corinthians 12:27).
Paul did not jump subjects to water baptism admission into some universal church. The baptism here is not water baptism, for it is a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit. As we said above not every baptism is a baptism involving water and burial in it (Matthew 3:11; 20:22).
Water baptism is an individual act of answering God with a good conscience (I Pet 3:21). Water baptism is performed by a human administrator, not by the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:38). Water baptism does not make church members except in Roman Catholicism, for the eunuch was not made a member anywhere by his baptism by Philip (Acts 8:39).
Church membership, the outward organization, is by mutual assent in Christ, for Paul’s baptism had not made him a member in any sense of any body (Acts 9:18,26).
Since baptism is an immersion, the verse describes the Spirit immersing us into a church.
Believers lay claim to this verse by asking for it to be done when we receive new members, which is the opposite action taken when excluding a member from church body. The church has binding and loosing authority, which the Spirit applies (Matthew 18:18).
The Holy Spirit immerses, buries, plunges, dips, and otherwise sticks new members into the body until they are grafted onto it and participate in the same Spirit in the body.
The result is not salvation, membership, gifts, or anything else, but participation in the body. “To drink into one Spirit” is mutual participation in the lively energy of the Holy Spirit.
What scripture (s) do you think you have to prove your doctrine? Water baptism puts one into Jesus Christ, or, into his faith and teachings, water baptism identifies us with Christ as willing subjects to obey and follow his teachings found in the word of God.
civic
Well-known member
I’ll prove you wrong after work today regarding the baptism of the spirit being the new birth , born again of the Spirit . That will be my pleasure to do so for all the readers and guests .
hope this helps !!!
Fred, I do~example:
Fred, our enemies are not literal snakes and scorpions trying to harm us, our enemies are the generation of vipers walking around on two legs, that God's children are in a battle with. They are barking dogs that Paul said to beware of~again two legged dogs that have their private jets and live like King Charles.
Of course some are just ordinary evil workers ~ if they put confidence in the flesh as though by their own power they have come to know the truth, and by their own power will continue in the truth, etc.
I'll stop for now, but such scriptures as Luke 10 should give a person true understanding of Mark 16, 17,18.
Do you think taking up a serpent can be associated with treading on a serpent?
Fred~what do you think after reading my posts? Serpents mentioned in Mark and Luke are not literal serpents.
Can you quote anyone who agrees with you concerning Mark 16:17-18?
Looking forward seeing what you have, most likely something I have seen before, but we shall see. Thank you.
civic
Well-known member
The promise of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
This was shown earlier in the book of Acts and the story of Simon the sorcerer.
Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. )
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
it shows these believers did NOT receive the Spirit as a result of being water baptized. Verses 17, 18, and 19 ALL show that they received the Spirit as a result of the apostle's laying their hands on these believers.
In Ephesians 4, there is only one baptism and we see it is tied in with the Spirit,
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Below we see Paul confirms the same thing in 1 Cor 12.
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Does this say we are baptized by water into the body of Christ? NOPE.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Did John the Baptist say Jesus would baptized us with water? NOPE, he said he would baptize us with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Did Jesus tell his disciples they would be baptized with water? NOPE, he told them they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Did Cornelius and his family receive the Holy Ghost as a result of water baptism? NOPE they received the Holy Spirit when they BELIEVED the gospel, and were water baptized afterwards.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Was Peter speaking of water baptism here? NOPE, he says when Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit, he remembered that John had said "but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost".
And then Peter shows that the more than 3000 Jews who saved on Pentecost received the Spirit in the exact same manner as Cornelius and his family, when they BELIEVED. They were water baptized afterwards. Baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at conversion. It is synonymous with the new birth, born again, born of the Spirit etc.....
Baptism is obligatory because our Lord has commanded it, and we rob ourselves of this particular seal of the promises of God if we do not submit ourselves to baptism. The main thing and the first thing about baptism is that it is something that God has chosen to do to us. It is God giving us the seal of our regeneration and, as we are baptized, He is speaking to us and telling us that we are regenerated. But, of course, as we are baptized, we are incidentally bearing our witness to the fact that we have believed the truth.
In Acts 10:44-48 we have a view of the conversion process: They heard the word, that is, they believed (v. 44). They received the Holy Spirit (v. 44,47). They were baptised (v. 48). These Gentiles had been saved in the same way as the Jews; simple faith. There was no suggestion of law-keeping, circumcision, or any other ordinance or ritual. This is the order of events that prevails for Jew and Gentile alike today.
Remission of sins by water baptism reverses the whole order of the Gospel, which is repentance and faith before baptism. It contradicts hundreds of Scriptures, which say that sins are remitted, and men are saved, justified, sanctified, and washed from sins:
- By grace through faith (Rom. 3:24-25; Eph. 2:8-9; Acts 15:8-9).
- By faith without works (Rom. 3:22-28; 4:1-25; 5:1; Gal. 3:19-290.
- By faith in the blood of Jesus (Rom. 3:24-25; 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 1 John 1:7; Matt. 26:28; Heb. 9:22; 1 Peter 1:18-23).
- By the death of Christ (Rom. 5:10-11; 1 Cor. 15:1-5).
- By obedience to Christ (Rom. 8:2).
- By the Spirit of life in Christ (Rom. 8:2).
- By confession and faith from the heart (Rom. 10:9-10; 1 John 1:9).
- By calling upon the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:9-13).
- By believing on Jesus (John 3:16-18,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-40; 16:31; Rom. 10:9-10; 1 Cor. 1:21).
- By repentance and faith in the Gospel (Mark 1:14-15; Acts 20:21).
- By receiving and believing that Jesus is the Christ (John 1:12; 1 John 5:1).
- By repentance and conversion (Acts 3:19; 2 Cor. 7:9-10).
- By faith in His name (Matt. 1:21; Acts 3:16; 4:10-12).
- By the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18; John 3:5; 15:3).
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Water Baptism is not a requirement for salvation. The most abused text for those who promote such a doctrine is found in Acts.
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Greek word eis which is translated for the remission of sins means “with a view” or “because of”. Baptism is because they have been saved “past tense” and not in order to be saved. Salvation is from receiving Gods word in verse 41.
So then, those who had received his word were baptized;
In verse 44 we see that “all who believed” made up the church and not all who were baptized. We see that all who had already received the Holy Spirit upon hearing the word preached afterwards were baptized. So salvation came prior to baptism. This coincides with Acts 10:47 where we see they had already received the Holy Spirit and believed. They were already born again by the Spirit of God and were then baptized.Acts 10:47-48 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
We see in Johns gospel and his epistles that nowhere is water baptism even mentioned for salvation. John wrote his gospel for the following reason:
John 20:31 -but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Belief in Jesus and eternal life in Him is why he wrote his gospel. Nowhere is baptism mentioned with eternal life.
John 3:16-For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
John 6:40- For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47-Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 17:2-4
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 -but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
1 John 5:11-14 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
We can clearly see that it is by faith/belief alone in the Son that we are saved and experience eternal life.
hope this helps !!!
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Greek word eis which is translated for the remission of sins means “with a view” or “because of”. Baptism is because they have been saved “past tense” and not in order to be saved. Salvation is from receiving Gods word in verse 41.
So then, those who had received his word were baptized;
In verse 44 we see that “all who believed” made up the church and not all who were baptized. We see that all who had already received the Holy Spirit upon hearing the word preached afterwards were baptized. So salvation came prior to baptism. This coincides with Acts 10:47 where we see they had already received the Holy Spirit and believed. They were already born again by the Spirit of God and were then baptized.Acts 10:47-48 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
We see in Johns gospel and his epistles that nowhere is water baptism even mentioned for salvation. John wrote his gospel for the following reason:
John 20:31 -but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Belief in Jesus and eternal life in Him is why he wrote his gospel. Nowhere is baptism mentioned with eternal life.
John 3:16-For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
John 6:40- For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47-Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
John 17:2-4
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 -but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
1 John 5:11-14 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
We can clearly see that it is by faith/belief alone in the Son that we are saved and experience eternal life.
hope this helps !!!
Well, I must say, you must give me time to even organize your two post, you were all over place. Let's be clear on this one point~ there is no discrepancy between us on water baptism not being essential to regeneration~so, we can lay that to bed quickly. That was not what I was asking for from you.
The subject was to be on the Holy Spirit being the means of regeneration or, placing us into the body of Jesus Christ~you said:
I was looking for you to strictly address this subject.
Much of your two posts were given to prove water baptism is not essential to the new birth, which I agree 100%.
I
Brother, these fourteen points is a very discombobulated list~to say the least. While I can praise your zeal, and love of the scriptures, which I do, you need to learn to apply these scriptures that you linked to certain points to their proper proper doctrines they belong to.
Example:
- By obedience to Christ (Rom. 8:2).
- By the Spirit of life in Christ (Rom. 8:2).
Example:
- By the death of Christ (Rom. 5:10-11; 1 Cor. 15:1-5).
- By repentance and faith in the Gospel (Mark 1:14-15; Acts 20:21).
I explain the meaning of this verse above, and made it very clear that it was not speaking of water baptism, and neither is it speaking of baptism by the Spirit at regeneration.
Let's address only the baptism of the Spirit, a much misunderstood teaching that the church epistles are totally silence on! Including Ephesians 4:4~Selah Unless you can show me otherwise, I will give you every opportunity to do so.
This is a summary of what ive learned: The KJV is based on over 5000 manuscript copies in the textus receptus, which mostly agree..whereas the Sinactus and Vaticanus are based on far far fewer manuscripts and they have large variations.
Even though they are older...does not always mean better.
You gotta apply alot more than the age test
Still waiting on you addressing the popular doctrine of the baptism of the Spirit, which the church epistles are 100% silence on, and obviously for a reason. Wonder what that may be? Especially in light of the baptism of the Spirit is for power in service for Christ as the blinded Pentecostals teach.
If you can not answer, then, maybe one of your friends will. It is a subject that needs to be explored, if millions of profess Christians teach the baptism of the Spirit, needed by every Christian before they can be an effective witness for Christ.
I'm pretty much convinced that it is a shortcut to being truly Spirit filled which requires so much more from us than speaking in an so-called unknown tongue.
Not sure what you want @civic's friends to address? All those who are "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5) are to be effective witnesses for Christ.
Synergy~please read the post.......
What do you think the baptism of the Spirit is and can you prove it with the scriptures?
Matthew 3:11
. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
I have heard more than once Pentecostals quoting this verse in their vain attempt to support their doctrine of Baptism of the Spirit~but the context of John words will not support their teachings, not even close. and we will take it a step farther and say, no one truly wants this baptism of the Spirit.
This baptism of the Spirit is a baptism of destruction in the lake of fire after the Great White Throne Judgement~At which judgment the The Lord Jesus will be the the Judge and his saints with him approving. Consider the context of Matthew 3 with us:
The baptism of fire will be when the wicked are cast alive into the lake of fire to be destroyed...burn up. It will not be a sprinkling of a little fire, but an immersion into the lake of fire ~ which is the second death of the wicked. It is not that deep, just one has to believe the testimony of God's word, not men behind the pulpit calling themselves men of God when in fact they very seldom even come close to teaching truth~they teach what others desire them to teach, or else, they would be alone somewhere in this world doing much what we are doing.
. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
I have heard more than once Pentecostals quoting this verse in their vain attempt to support their doctrine of Baptism of the Spirit~but the context of John words will not support their teachings, not even close. and we will take it a step farther and say, no one truly wants this baptism of the Spirit.
This baptism of the Spirit is a baptism of destruction in the lake of fire after the Great White Throne Judgement~At which judgment the The Lord Jesus will be the the Judge and his saints with him approving. Consider the context of Matthew 3 with us:
To saved time, we highlighted what we desire for our readers to see in order to grasp the true meaning of what John is saying when he said that he only baptized with water, but one coming after him is mightier than he is, and that he would baptized not with water, but with the Holy Ghost and fire, which he explain to be a judgment of burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire!
The baptism of fire will be when the wicked are cast alive into the lake of fire to be destroyed...burn up. It will not be a sprinkling of a little fire, but an immersion into the lake of fire ~ which is the second death of the wicked. It is not that deep, just one has to believe the testimony of God's word, not men behind the pulpit calling themselves men of God when in fact they very seldom even come close to teaching truth~they teach what others desire them to teach, or else, they would be alone somewhere in this world doing much what we are doing.
