Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
No, I am saying they do not have faith.
scripture refutes you as faith saves
John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Acts 26:18 (ESV) — 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 3:25 (ESV) — 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Romans 3:27 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 10:8–9 (ESV) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Miraculous signs are not necessary to receiving the Spirit but you have denied the texts equating receiving the spirit with the indwelling
.
John 14:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 7:38–39 (NASB 2020) — 38 The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Two verses clearly identify receiving the spirit with the indwelling
Book, chapter and verse
Quote verses stating they received the Spirit.
or withdraw the claim
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, belief is a very important part of being saved. But it is not the ONLY part of being saved. You act as if these passages are more important, more inspired, more God's Word than passages like Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, John 3:5, Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 3:21, and so many others that says something in addition to belief is required to receive salvation.
All Scripture has the same importance because it is all authored by the same Spirit. And you cannot exclude certain passages from your doctrine just because they do not agree with your preconceived idea about how what is required to receive salvation. Yes, belief is necessary. But so is confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and repentance (Acts 3:19), and baptism (Matt 28:19, 1 Pet 3:21).
No, I have denied your claim that the indwelling is indicated every time the Holy Spirit is received.
For instance:
According to your own belief, as soon as someone believes they are in Christ and are saved. Correct?
And as soon as someone is saved, they receive the indwelling of the Spirit. Correct?
The Samaritans in Acts 8 had believed the Gospel and had been baptized into Christ. They were saved! And therefore had received the indwelling of the Spirit. There can be no doubt; they were saved in Christ, and EVERYONE who is in Christ has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
But Acts 8:16 says that the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them. So then, "not yet fallen on them" cannot be referring to the indwelling, but only to the miraculous power of the Spirit.
Moses - Num 11:17 - "Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take away some of the Spirit who is upon you, and put Him upon them..."
David - 1 Sam 16:13 - "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon David from that day forward."
John - Luke 1:15 - "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb."
Truther
Well-known member
It says they believe.
They don't have faith but still believe?
Please elaborate on how one can believe and tremble but not have faith?
OverviewUsage examplesPronunciationSimilar and opposite words
believe
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From Oxford Languages
verb
1.
be convinced by
trust
have confidence in
consider honest
consider truthful
regard as true
accept as true
accept
give credence to
Truther
Well-known member
Show me in the Bible where you can have faith but not believe.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
So handle 1 John 2:27.
First all these verses were decisive in salvation
scripture refutes you as faith saves
John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Acts 26:18 (ESV) — 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 3:25 (ESV) — 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Romans 3:27 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 10:8–9 (ESV) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Not just an important part and you cannot deny faith of itself is sufficient for salvation without denying scripture
If i say he who believes and picks his nose is saved, are you going to say he who believes but does not pick his nose will not be saved
you commit the fallacy of negative inference in doing so
You have a major problem. Scripture states they had not received the spirit. You err in demanding of the interim era where Salvation and the reception of the spirit is being extended to non Jews works exactly as the establish new covenant works
There was a reason God employed the apostles in the bringing of the New covenant and the indwelling of the spirit to non Jews
Not one of those verses employs the phrase receives the spirit
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I can indeed.
James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
And again, James 2:22 - "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected"
Yes, belief is very important, but it is NOT the only important part of salvation.
Only if there is no passage that also states the negative in Scripture, but there is. John 3:5 says that no one who is not born again of water (baptism) and the Spirit will enter the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is the Church, the body of those who are saved. Thus, no one will be saved who is not born again through water and the Spirit.
That is not error. There is only one New Covenant, and it works the same for the Jews on Pentecost, and the Samaritans a couple of years later, and the Gentiles a few years after that, and us today. There is no difference. Salvation is by the power of the blood of Jesus Christ through the working of the Holy Spirit, and is received through belief in the Gospel, repentance from sin, confession of Jesus as our Lord, and baptism in water which is where the Holy Spirit takes the action of cutting our sins from us, uniting us with the death and resurrection of Jesus, and giving us new life in Christ as part of the Church.
They do not need to. The fact that Moses had part of the Spirit that is in him removed and given to others necessitates that he had received the Spirit at some point prior. John was filled with (received) the Holy Spirit from before he left the womb. The Spirit rushed upon David (thus he received the Spirit) when he was anointed.
Truther
Well-known member
If believing in God is the lone qualifier, then the trembling devils are saved. There must be more. Maybe baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?
Truther
Well-known member
Do you continually tremble at the reality of believing in God? Or, do they believe in God more than you do? Your belief is a mere thought process?
You appear confused
I speak of faith i.e. trust not mental assent such as demons have.
Why do you find that hard to comprehend?
How is it you cannot understand?
Faith
Faith is more than mental assent
The same Greek word pistis may refer to either, but biblically faith saves, mental assent does not
James uses justification in the asense of vindication and not as a declartation of righteoueness
One cannot use one verse of scripture to deny many. That is an extremely poor way to handle scripture
scripture refutes you as faith saves
John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Acts 26:18 (ESV) — 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 3:25 (ESV) — 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Romans 3:27 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 10:8–9 (ESV) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Not just an important part and you cannot deny faith of itself is sufficient for salvation without denying scripture
That would be an assumption
Born of water has been interpreted multiple ways
You cannot just assume the one that fits your theology.
And we know for a fact it is not a true statement that one not born of water cannot experience the kingdom of God
remember the thief on the cross
further the gentiles had received Life and the Spirit before water baptism thus were Christs and in his kingdom
Sorry that is assumption. first it ignores the fact no one in the old covenant had received the Spirit in the new covenant manner
The Spirit was not yet given John 7:39
second nowhere does scripture ever speak of old covenant believers as receiving the Spirit
Third in the New testament the use of the phrase receive the Spirit never clearly refers to just receiving a gift of the Spirit and not the Spirit himself
Truther
Well-known member
What you do is differentiate your faith with the faith of another creature. You think they don’t believe in God right. That’s what religious people do. They try to tell you that you have to believe in God their way. You have no right to disqualify the devil from salvation, if all you have to do is believe to be saved.
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Truther
Well-known member
Faith does not cause Acts 2:38 to be debunked. Faith is the qualifier for baptism in the name of Jesus. Don’t believe me, believe the Ethiopian eunuch, when Philip went to baptize him. Philip told him the only way he would baptize him in the name of Jesus is if he believed. It’s surprisingly similar to Mark 16:16, huh?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Right?
But nowhere do we read you cannot be saved without water baptism.
PS remember Pharisees and scholars of the law had refused to be baptized in the name of Christ
Luke 7:30 (LSB) — 30 But the Pharisees and the scholars of the Law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
They were now being asked to repudiate their former stand
Er the bible does that.
No one would truly imagine demons had biblical faith if they understood what faith is.
you appear not to and equivocate between mental assent and biblical faith.
.
