Very astute brother.
Johann.
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
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Johann.
Obadiah
Well-known member
I have my moment
Believe
Active member
Don't try to take credit for my astuteness.I have my moment
Lol!
Obadiah
Well-known member
I'm glad we can get a laugh out of this stuff and not take ourselves so seriously all the time.
Why do you import the idea of burying into baptism?
Christ was not buried underground
Wash is the only actual definition employed in most bible translations
mailmandan
Active member
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.
So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation. I've heard certain folks (particularly those who attend the church of Christ) interpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way which means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here.
Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally "confess with their mouth." The church of Christ teaches a 4-step plan of salvation - 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Baptism and ONLY after all 4 steps are completed the person remains lost according to them. Since believes unto righteousness and confession is made unto salvation "precedes" water baptism, this becomes a problematic contradiction for their flawed 4-step plan of salvation that culminates in salvation by water baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.
So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation. I've heard certain folks (particularly those who attend the church of Christ) interpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way which means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here.
Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally "confess with their mouth." The church of Christ teaches a 4-step plan of salvation - 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Baptism and ONLY after all 4 steps are completed the person remains lost according to them. Since believes unto righteousness and confession is made unto salvation "precedes" water baptism, this becomes a problematic contradiction for their flawed 4-step plan of salvation that culminates in salvation by water baptism.
Correct brother-it is what they call a synecdoche. I.e. not two separate concepts but ONE.
J.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I didn't say they believe He can save them. I said they believe that Jesus is God.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, not part of any "cult group". But then, you can't accept the truth of God's Word, so you put me on ignore. I'm ok with that. Like the ostrich with its head in the sand, you will never see the predator (Satan) that kills you. I pray for you.Time to put you on ignore with your heretical postings. Glad people can see through it.
Your probably involved with some Cult group masquerading as a Christiangroup.
.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Even in this translation, "by openly declaring... that you are saved." The cause is the declaring and the result is salvation. The declaration must come before the salvation, because salvation is the result of the declaration, not the other way around.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I do not "import" burying into baptism.
Rom 6:2-4 - "How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death"
We are buried into death THROUGH baptism. Christ was indeed buried underground (in a cave). His body was placed in a tomb with a stone rolled in front of the opening, so that He was completely encased in the Earth, just as Jonah was completely encased in the fish.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I meet weekly with two congregations of the Lord's Church, and when I travel I meet with different congregations. There are several small groups I also meet with for study, and mutual encouragement and edification.
1 Pet 3:21
Rom 6:1-7
Col 2:11-14
All three of these passages (along with many others) are quite explicit that the Holy Spirit removes our sins during baptism. I know you want to interpret them differently, but that is what the passages say.
It still looks like you are
Christ was buried above ground, not underground and there is no water in that passage. There is a baptism into Christ by the Spirit and a corresponding baptism into his death as a result of union with Christ
We are buried with Christ by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead … even so we also should walk in newness of life." That Paul is not speaking of water baptism, however, but of the spiritual reality it symbolizes, is clear, for he says that through baptism "our old man sinful nature is crucified with him Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed." As a consequence, he urges believers to reckon" themselves " to be dead indeed unto sin … . Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body" (vv 6-13).
2. That this baptism is real, by the Spirit, and not ritual, by water, is farther conclusively shown by the fact, that εἰς with its regimen related to βαπτίζω declares definitely and finally the baptism and the nature of the baptism.
This is true without exception of Classic usage. In such phrases as βαπτίζω εἰς θάλασσαν, εἰς λίμνην, εἰς ποταμόν, no one ever thought of any other translation or interpretation than that which makes the baptized object pass into the SEA, into the LAKE, into the RIVER, without any purpose or power of the verb to bring out; therefore, subjecting the object to the unlimited influence of sea, lake, or river. The same is true of Jewish writings. When Josephus speaks of a baptism εἰς ἀναισθησίαν an intelligent translation precludes any other than a baptism “into INSENSIBILITY,” the verbal form being modelled after that of a physical baptism; but inasmuch as a physical passing “into insensibility” as an element is impossible, this idea is rejected; and that other idea of unlimited influence consequent upon an object being introduced, without withdrawal, into a physical element, is accepted as the idea designed to be conveyed by such phrase. The same form, with the same power of expression, is used by Patristic writers. Clemens Alex, speaks of a baptism εἰς ὕπνον into SLEEP; where, again, we reject the impossible idea of a passage “into sleep” as an element, and accept the associate and inseparable idea, unlimited influence of sleep. Now, unless the Greek of the New Testament be under essentially different laws from all other Greek (Classic, Jewish, and Patristic), then baptism “into CHRIST” is modelled after the form of a physical baptism which represents an object passing into a physical element, and thus subjected to the fullest influence of such element; but inasmuch as the redeemed souls of a world cannot, in fact, pass “into Christ,” we reject this idea (except as suggestive) and take the inseparable, consequent idea of unlimited influence exerted by Christ over his redeemed people = taking away the guilt of sin, and giving “newness of life” through the regenerating power of his Spirit. The same explanation applies to baptism “into HIS DEATH,” which is only a more precise statement as to the source of that influence exercised by Christ over his people. Christ is what he is to his people by reason of his atoning death; therefore, “so many of us as have been baptized into CHRIST, have been baptized into his DEATH.”
3. There is no just ground for error or doubt as to the import of εἰς and its regimen in relation with βαπτίζω. The principle of interpretation is clear and fixed. It is found in the influence exerted over an object in physical baptism. The nature of such influence is no less clear and fixed. It is the most unlimited = penetrating, controlling, and assimilating influence which the nature of the case allows. The variable quantities in such baptism are found in the nature of the element and the nature of the object. If water or oil be the element into which a fleece of wool is baptized the effect upon the wool will be diverse, according to the diverse nature of water and oil. If a vessel and its crew be baptized together into the sea, the effect of this common baptism on vessel and crew will be diverse, according to the nature of lifeless wood and of living men. A baptism “into insensibility” differs from a baptism “into repentance” just as insensibility differs from repentance. And a baptism “into MOSES,” “into PAUL,” “into CHRIST,” differs the one from the other just as Moses and Paul and Christ differ the one from the other.
If these things be true, then, when in the statement of any baptism εἰς and its regimen appears, the baptism is thereby definitely and absolutely declared, and all farther inquiry is concluded.
In the passage before us the baptism spoken of is declared to be “into CHRIST” and (its equivalent baptism) “into HIS DEATH;” and this it must be for all with whom the word of God expressly declared is the end of all controversy. And as we can only be made partakers of the blessings which belong to Christ and his death, by the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, this baptism can only be the real and regenerative baptism of the Divine Spirit.
James W. Dale, An Inquiry Into the Usage of ΒΑΠΤΙΖΩ and the Nature of Christic and Patristic Baptism (Philadelphia: Wm. Rutter & Co., 1874), 243–245.
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Doug Brents
Well-known member
Tom, there is ONLY ONE baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:4-6). And that one baptism that is associated with salvation requires water (Acts, 8:36, 1 Pet 3:21), is something that man must do (Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38), and includes actions taken by the Holy Spirit to remove our sin and unite us with Christ Jesus (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7). So yes, all of these references to baptism includes a reference to water, and all of them include a reference to an action that man must take.
Jesus was not buried above ground, in a mausoleum or something similar. He was buried in a cave (Matt 27:59-60). And this is very similar to the cave in which Lazarus was buried (John 11:38). This was a tomb, a cave hollowed out in the side of a cliff with a large stone rolled into the opening to seal the tomb, protecting the body from predators, and passers by from disease and the smell of a rotting corpse.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Oh, okay I get it now. Sometimes my brain is in sleep mode. Yes, thank you for those verses. It reminds of something that John MacArthur said on the subject of water baptism, as to whether it brings salvation or not. He said that we need to understand the less clear verses on the subject (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Col. 2:11-12, Acts 22:16, in the light of the clear verses on the subject. There are many more clear verses that don't even mention baptism as a requirement compared to just a few that some misinterpret to mean baptism is necessary for salvation. They use these few verses as proof texts, while basically ignoring the majority of verses that don't teach what they want them to.
In fact, I asked Doug and Truther to show me the verse(s) that tell us that salvation occurs at the point of water baptism - or that forgiveness of sins occurs at water baptism. So far, crickets. Because there are none. On the contrary, there are a multitude of verses that show us that we can be saved, without baptism even suggested. If they come up with any at all, it will be from the above verses, which again they will misinterpret to make people think that baptism is necessary for salvation. You could say that those few verses are their "talking points", i.e. their "go to" "proof" of their pet doctrine.
It's telling that cult followers do the same thing. They use the few verses to confuse the meaning of the majority of verses.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Sorry, I was away on a visit to family for the weekend, and didn't look at this forum since Friday morning.
I have asked before, but never gotten an answer from any maybe one of my "opponents": which verse in Scripture is more important/powerful/impactful/meaningful/complete than any other? Is John 3:16 more important to salvation than Matt 28:19? Is Eph 2:8-9 more powerful than 1 Pet 3:21?
I will answer for you, since no one else wants to see the point: No, no verse is complete without every other passage of Scripture. Scripture is not a set of individual statements, but a unified package that tells a story of God's interaction with man. EVERY statement in Scripture that has anything to do with salvation tells a unified story. So for you to ignore and exclude the verses you cited makes your doctrine incomplete. Just because John 3:16 doesn't say anything about baptism doesn't make baptism meaningless to salvation.
There is no cultism to accepting ALL of what Scripture says without filtering it based on preconceptions.
Its the baptism en the holy Ghost. Water baptism is just a symbol of moral cleanliness
but
Hebrews 6:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Finally There is no resemblance to burial in a cave and burial underwater and the passage concerns death to sin
Romans 6:1–7 (UASV) — 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be in the likeness of his resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified together with him, in order that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
this is a spiritual not a physical matter where the likeness of his death is death to sin and the likeness of his resurrection is to walk in newness of life
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Is baptism "en" the Holy Spirit something you can accomplish? No. So the command in Matt 28:19 cannot be baptism "en" the Holy Spirit. And it is the baptism mentioned in Matt 28:19 which saves (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21). Baptism is not just a symbol, but is the act of faith during which the Holy Spirit takes action and accomplishes baptism "en" the Holy Spirit.
There are indeed "baptisms" (plural), but there is only one of any importance in the NT Church, as Eph 5:4-6 states. And that one baptism requires water, and is something that man does. It is that one baptism (which includes action of man and the Spirit) that saves.
There is a connection because God says there is. Yes, the passage concerns death to sin, because we must die to sin in order to live to Christ. We die to sin in baptism, and are raised to new life in Christ during baptism.
It is both a physical and a spiritual matter. We die to sin spiritually when we are buried physically in water. It is through physical action that our faith is demonstrated, we are immersed in the blood of Christ, and emerge united with Christ and dead to sin.
Horatius
Member
No offense, But to me that sounds a lot like works salvation. If baptism were a requirement for salvation, I would certainly say it was. But I can't support that knowing, for example, that the thief on the cross had no opportunity for baptism or church membership. Yet on his confession, paradise was secured. Jesus said to him, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise’ Luke 23:43”
I understand the answer to the thief being forgiven is that Jesus had the authority to forgive sins. My question is why wouldn't that hold true with all new believers? Wouldn't you say that Jesus was setting the example? That you can be saved and go to heaven without being baptized.
For sure there are some Scripture verses which seem to indicate that baptism is necessary for salvation. That's what makes this topic difficult because on the other hand there are numerous Scripture references which clearly and explicitly state that salvation is received by faith, with no other requirement.
What gets my goat is when we add baptism, or any other work, to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to secure our salvation. To say we must be baptized in order to be saved is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.
Just saying.
