Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Truther]

Utter nonsense

You have not shown what is being skipped

Utter nonsense? So you don’t think that the book of Ephesians was written to the church of Ephesus? Was it written to sinners at Ephesus? Have you read the titles and greetings of the book? Do you know what an epistle is?

 

[Truther]

Do you guys teach that the epistles are the epistles to sinners?

 

[TomL]

Oh really? That would be you reading into Scripture what you want to find there. Now it is you who is changing the meaning of words to fit your interpretation.

Lets see





δικαιόω (dikaioō), VB. justify; declare righteous. fut.act. δικαιώσω; aor.act. ἐδικαίωσα; aor.pass. ἐδικαιώθην; perf.mid. δεδικαίωμαι. Hebrew equivalent: צדק (15). LTW δικαιόω (Righteousness), δικαιόω (Justice).

Verb Usage

1. to be justified — to be or become judicially vindicated as having complied with the requirements of the law (of God).



Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



δικαιόω fut. δικαιώσω; 1 aor. ἐδικαίωσα; 1 aor. pass. ἐδικαιώθην, subj. δικαιωθῶ, ptc. δικαιωθείς; 1 fut. pass. δικαιωθήσομαι; pf. pass. δεδικαίωμαι Ro 6:7; 1 Cor 4:4, ptc. δεδικαιωμένος Lk 18:14 (Soph., Hdt.+; pap., LXX; Jos., Ant. 17, 206; Test. 12 Patr.).
1. show justice, do justice τινά to someone (Polyb. 3, 3l, 9; Cass. Dio 48, 46; 2 Km 15:4; Ps 81:3)to one who is just 1 Cl 16:12 (Is 53:11); χήραν (χήρᾳ v.l.) 8:4 (Is 1:17).
2. justify, vindicate, treat as just


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 197.

so far the lexicons support my claim

Need more

δικαιόω, -ῶ; fut. δικαιώσω; 1 aor. ἐδικαίωσα; Pass., [pres. δικαιοῦμαι]; pf. δεδικαίωμαι; 1 aor. ἐδικαιώθην; fut. δικαιωθήσομαι; (δίκαιος); Sept. for צִדֵּק and הצְדִּיק;
1. prop. (acc. to the analogy of other verbs ending in όω, as τυφλόω, δουλόω) to make δίκαιος; to render righteous or such as he ought to be; (Vulg. justifico); but this meaning is extremely rare, if not altogether doubtful; ἐδικαίωσα τὴν καρδίαν μου stands for וִבִּיתִי לְבָבִי in Ps.72 (73):13 (unless I have shown my heart to be upright be preferred as the rendering of the Greek there).
2. τινά, to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered


Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 150.

δικαιόω, -ῶ (< δίκαιος), [in LXX chiefly for צדק pi., hi., (1) as Ez 16:51, Je 3:11 (cf. NT usage); (2) as De 25:1, Ex 23:7, Is 50:8;] 1. in cl., (a) c. acc. rei, to deem right; (b) c. acc. pers., to do one justice; pass., δικαιοῦσθαι, to be treated rightly, opp. to ἀδικεῖσθαι. 2. In NT, as in LXX, and as usual with verbs in -όω from adjectives of moral meaning; (1) to show to be righteous

G. Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1922), 116.

"You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:22-24
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due." Rom 4:1-4
Both of these passages quote the same passage from Gen 15, and both make a similar but slightly different point, but they do not contradict, but enhance the other point made. Romans says that salvation is received through faith (belief), and that it is not a wage or something deserved as a debt payment, but is a gift. James says that our actions perfect and make complete our faith (belief), and that we are not saved by our faith alone, but by our faith made complete by our actions.

Neither of which contradicts a thing I stated

Abraham was declared righeous when he believed

Romans 4:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


He was vindicated as righteous when he acted in faith

That is what James is talking about.

Your interpretation requires you to falsify what Paul stated

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

 

[TomL]

Doug Brents said:

What you mean here is that if one passage of Scripture refutes your preconception of what other Scriptures mean, you can forget that the one passage is even in Scripture, and ignore the lesson that it teaches because it really does not mean what it says. THAT is the "extremely poor way to handle scripture"!

We cannot ignore a Scripture just because we don't like what it says. If one passage says one thing and another says something different, then we must examine them both (and possibly many more) to find the truth. Yes, the passages you list below all only mention belief (pistis - which is faith, not intellectual assent), but we must assess HOW faith saves, and that is explained in the many passages you want to bury and ignore: Acts 2:38, Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, John 3:5, Eph 5:25-27, and many others. These passages explain the connection between our actions, our faith, and our reception of salvation.

No what I mean is you must falsify many verses to affirm your view

And the question is not how faith saves but the quality of the faith that saves

As you were told mental assent does not save

faith trust however does

When Abraham believed he was counted as righteous

When the thief on the crossd believed he was promised paradice

When the gentiles believed they received the spirit

Scripture shows upon trust in Christ

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

one is sealed by the spirit in Christ

scripture refutes you as faith saves

John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 (KJV 1900) — 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 26:18 (ESV) — 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 3:25 (ESV) — 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 3:27 (ESV) — 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Romans 10:8–9 (ESV) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Not just an important part and you cannot deny faith of itself is sufficient for salvation without denying scripture

Doug Brents said:

You repeating the same exact thing does not change the Scripture's response to your false assertion. Faith without action is meaningless. Faith is not a passive, inactive, 'mental only' thing. Without action faith is dead. So without action, faith cannot save. As James says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." You will notice that this is the ONLY place in all of Scripture that the phrase "faith only", or "faith alone", or any similar phrase is to be found.

The only false assertion here is yours denying all those verses

You err in assuming faith as used by Paul and john is a passive, inactive, 'mental only' thing. That is not how they use it and that is not how I define it

true faith, living faith will work because it involves trust in the object of ones faith.

 

[TomL]

That is your assumption, and is not supported by Scripture. The Gentiles in Acts 10 received the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, but did not have the indwelling yet, nor did they received forgiveness and justification until they were born again in water baptism.

According to scripture they received the spirit and repentance unto life

Acts 10:47–48 (KJV 1900) — 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

How does reception of a gift justify receiving water baptism which you believe to be saving?

Acts 11:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
The Jews however were convinced by the gentiles reception of the spirit meant they had received life

It does not ignore that fact. It makes the point that the Gentiles in Acts 10 received the Holy Spirit in the same way as Moses, David, Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist, and all the other OT saints did. They did not receive the indwelling until they were born again in water baptism.

Sorry nowheree do we read Moses, David, Elijah received the spirit as did the gentiles in acts 10

You are simply assuming your view contrary to the words of John

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Spirit had not yet been given in that manner

I just showed you three places where Scripture says that OT believers had the Spirit. If they had the Spirit, then they received the Spirit.

That phrase is not defined by Scripture. It can mean the reception of the miraculous gifts or it can mean the reception of the indwelling. It is in the context that we find which was received. Most of the places in Acts that it is used it refers to the miraculous working of the Spirit.

 

[Truther]

Doug Brents said:

No what I mean is you must falsify many verses to affirm your view

And the question is not how faith saves but the quality of the faith that saves

As you were told mental assent does not save

faith trust however does

When Abraham believed he was counted as righteous

When the thief on the crossd believed he was promised paradice

When the gentiles believed they received the spirit

Scripture shows upon trust in Christ

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

one is sealed by the spirit in Christ



Doug Brents said:


The only false assertion here is yours denying all those verses

You err in assuming faith as used by Paul and john is a passive, inactive, 'mental only' thing. That is not how they use it and that is not how I define it

true faith, living faith will work because it involves trust in the object of ones faith.

You did it again. You skipped Acts 2:38, 8, 10 and 19 regarding baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

What is your beef with baptism In the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? Have you thought about this at all?

 

[TomL]

Utter nonsense? So you don’t think that the book of Ephesians was written to the church of Ephesus? Was it written to sinners at Ephesus? Have you read the titles and greetings of the book? Do you know what an epistle is?

How in the world does that do anything to show acts is being skipped

did you forget what you stated ?

Matt-John for sinners to believe in Jesus.

Acts for sinners to obey(what shall they do?).

Rom-Rev are epistles(letters) to born again saints only, not for sinners to read or obey.

You all are Acts skippers and teach sinners to be fellow Acts skippers.

Acts skippers breed Acts skippers.

Now do you care to actually explain how anyone is skipping Acts?

 

[TomL]

You did it again. You skipped Acts 2:38, 8, 10 and 19 regarding baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

What is your beef with baptism In the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? Have you thought about this at all?

I have no beef with water baptism. I believe we should do it.

I am not however a Jew who rejected baptism in the name of Christ.

and I am one who believed the many verses scripture provides which show one receives salvation upon faith.

 

[TomL]

Peter told them specifically to be baptized in the name of the Lord. You would’ve said that or in the name of the father, son and Holy Ghost?

Peter said that to Jews who had rejected Christ and baptism in his name

I am not one of them

 

[TomL]

The book of Ephesians was written to Saints that are required to continue to trust God. This has nothing to do with the plan of salvation for sinners. How can you not see that Tom?

Wrong

It has everything to do with salvation

Ephesians 1:13–14 (UASV) — 13 In whom also, you having heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having trusted, were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is a down payment of our inheritance for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

as it marks one in Christ and seals them as having received a down payment

 

[TomL]

That phrase is not defined by Scripture. It can mean the reception of the miraculous gifts or it can mean the reception of the indwelling. It is in the context that we find which was received. Most of the places in Acts that it is used it refers to the miraculous working of the Spirit.

Sorry, that is an error

Not only is there a vast difference between receiving a person and receiving a gift from a person but scripture sahow

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

both use the verb receive and both refer to the indwelling of the Spirit

 

[Complete]

All I know is Christendom is filled with silly modern cliches like..." just trust the Lord as your savior", designed to debunk obedience to obeying Acts 2:38. Christendom replaces ancient salvation with new age ideas. Folks swallow it all too. I blame the folks and not so much the crooked teachers. The folks know what they want to hear via having itching ears.

'Then Peter said unto them,
Repent, and be baptized
every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive
the gift of the Holy Ghost.'
(Act 2:38)

Hello @Truther,

Who were these words spoken to? It matters.

' Ye men of Israel,
hear these words; ... '
(Act 2:22)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

Correct, which proves that receiving the Holy Spirit is not for the remission of sins. It is lead people to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

You have a major problems

First you have to believe before you can receive the spirit

When you believe you are sealed in Christ

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

which is the earnest of our inheritance

Its absurd you imagine this could apply to one who was not forgiven of his sin

Just as it is absurd to imagine the Holy Spirit indwells one still in sin

finally

Mark 1:8 (ESV) — 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Man baptizes with water but Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit

This is the greater baptism by the greater one.

With a greater than water

 

[TomL]

'Then Peter said unto them,
Repent, and be baptized
every one of you
in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive
the gift of the Holy Ghost.'
(Act 2:38)

Hello @Truther,

Who were these words spoken to? It matters.

' Ye men of Israel,
hear these words; ... '
(Act 2:22)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes men who had crucified Christ

Acts 2:36–38 (KJV 1900) — 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[TomL]

Doug Brents said:
I just showed you three places where Scripture says that OT believers had the Spirit. If they had the Spirit, then they received the Spirit.

But you failed to show the old covenant believers received the spirit in the new covenant manner

In the Old Testament leaders, prophets and others tasked to fulfill a particular service were given the Spirit for that end

They had not received the spirit in personal permanent indwelling regenerating them.



Doug Brents said:
That phrase is not defined by Scripture. It can mean the reception of the miraculous gifts or it can mean the reception of the indwelling. It is in the context that we find which was received. Most of the places in Acts that it is used it refers to the miraculous working of the Spirit.

You failed to show that receiving the Spirit means receiving a gift from the Spirit

You have assumed this without a single verse stating such.

 

[Doug Brents]

Lets see

δικαιόω (dikaioō), VB. justify; declare righteous. fut.act. δικαιώσω; aor.act. ἐδικαίωσα; aor.pass. ἐδικαιώθην; perf.mid. δεδικαίωμαι. Hebrew equivalent: צדק (15). LTW δικαιόω (Righteousness), δικαιόω (Justice).

Verb Usage

1. to be justified — to be or become judicially vindicated as having complied with the requirements of the law (of God).



Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).



δικαιόω fut. δικαιώσω; 1 aor. ἐδικαίωσα; 1 aor. pass. ἐδικαιώθην, subj. δικαιωθῶ, ptc. δικαιωθείς; 1 fut. pass. δικαιωθήσομαι; pf. pass. δεδικαίωμαι Ro 6:7; 1 Cor 4:4, ptc. δεδικαιωμένος Lk 18:14 (Soph., Hdt.+; pap., LXX; Jos., Ant. 17, 206; Test. 12 Patr.).
1. show justice, do justice τινά to someone (Polyb. 3, 3l, 9; Cass. Dio 48, 46; 2 Km 15:4; Ps 81:3)to one who is just 1 Cl 16:12 (Is 53:11); χήραν (χήρᾳ v.l.) 8:4 (Is 1:17).
2. justify, vindicate, treat as just


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 197.

so far the lexicons support my claim

Need more

δικαιόω, -ῶ; fut. δικαιώσω; 1 aor. ἐδικαίωσα; Pass., [pres. δικαιοῦμαι]; pf. δεδικαίωμαι; 1 aor. ἐδικαιώθην; fut. δικαιωθήσομαι; (δίκαιος); Sept. for צִדֵּק and הצְדִּיק;
1. prop. (acc. to the analogy of other verbs ending in όω, as τυφλόω, δουλόω) to make δίκαιος; to render righteous or such as he ought to be; (Vulg. justifico); but this meaning is extremely rare, if not altogether doubtful; ἐδικαίωσα τὴν καρδίαν μου stands for וִבִּיתִי לְבָבִי in Ps.72 (73):13 (unless I have shown my heart to be upright be preferred as the rendering of the Greek there).
2. τινά, to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered


Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 150.

δικαιόω, -ῶ (< δίκαιος), [in LXX chiefly for צדק pi., hi., (1) as Ez 16:51, Je 3:11 (cf. NT usage); (2) as De 25:1, Ex 23:7, Is 50:8;] 1. in cl., (a) c. acc. rei, to deem right; (b) c. acc. pers., to do one justice; pass., δικαιοῦσθαι, to be treated rightly, opp. to ἀδικεῖσθαι. 2. In NT, as in LXX, and as usual with verbs in -όω from adjectives of moral meaning; (1) to show to be righteous

G. Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1922), 116.

All this shows is that vindication is a POSSIBLE usage of the word. But when we go back to the passage that James is quoting (Gen 15:6) Justified is used in the sense of "declared righteous", not vindication. James' point is still that we are declared righteous because of the Blood of Christ through the actions we take in obedience to God's command, and without taking action we do not encounter the cleansing Blood of Christ.

Neither of which contradicts a thing I stated

Abraham was declared righeous when he believed

Romans 4:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

When he had FAITH, not just intellectual assent, and his faith was made perfect and complete by what he DID.

He was vindicated as righteous when he acted in faith

He was declared righteous because his actions completed and made perfect his faith. Without both he would not have been, as we are not, declared righteous.

That is what James is talking about.

Your interpretation requires you to falsify what Paul stated

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

Is belief, in this passage, intellectual assent? Or is it faith?

No what I mean is you must falsify many verses to affirm your view

And the question is not how faith saves but the quality of the faith that saves

As you were told mental assent does not save

faith trust however does

Faith saves if it is real, alive, and active. If it is not real, not alive, and not active, then it does not, cannot, save.

When Abraham believed he was counted as righteous

When Abraham had FAITH he was counted as righteous. His intellectual assent meant nothing.

When the thief on the crossd believed he was promised paradice

The thief on the cross does not enter this discussion, because he was never in the New Covenant.

When the gentiles believed they received the spirit

And when they exhibited their faith in baptism, they received the indwelling of the Spirit and were saved.

Scripture shows upon trust in Christ

Intellectual assent is not trust. Obedience is trust.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

one is sealed by the spirit in Christ

One is sealed by the Holy Spirit in Christ when he is baptized into Christ and receives forgiveness of sins, death to sin, resurrection with Christ and adoption by God as a coheir with Christ. None of this happens before water baptism.

The only false assertion here is yours denying all those verses

I denied no verses. I simply assert that these verses are not complete in their doctrinal impact. These verses do not contradict other passages like Rom 10:9-10 which makes verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord a condition upon which salvation is received (and there are many others).

You err in assuming faith as used by Paul and john is a passive, inactive, 'mental only' thing. That is not how they use it and that is not how I define it

I do not err in that assumption, because that assumption is not mine. Read my posts. I have said repeatedly that faith is NOT passive, inactive, or mental only. It REQUIRES action to be real and effective. If there is no action, then there is no faith.

true faith, living faith will work because it involves trust in the object of ones faith.

And that trust, and obedient work MUST come before salvation is received.

According to scripture they received the spirit and repentance unto life

Acts 10:47–48 (KJV 1900) — 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

They received the miraculous works of the Spirit just as the Apostles did on Pentecost ("at the beginning"). They received the indwelling and forgiveness when they were baptized in water shortly thereafter. And repentance is linked with baptism (Acts 2:38) as leading to the reception of salvation and the Holy Spirit's indwelling.

How does reception of a gift justify receiving water baptism which you believe to be saving?

Acts 11:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
The Jews however were convinced by the gentiles reception of the spirit meant they had received life

NO, the Jews were convinced that the Gentiles were accepted by the Holy Spirit to be equal in the Church, not that they had been saved at the instant they received the miraculous works of the Spirit. Notice that repentance is unto (leads to) life, not that it brings about life immediately.

Sorry nowheree do we read Moses, David, Elijah received the spirit as did the gentiles in acts 10

You are simply assuming your view contrary to the words of John

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Spirit had not yet been given in that manner

And you are assuming that "received the Holy Spirit" means the indwelling. But I am not saying that Moses, David, Elijah, and all the other OT saints had the indwelling. We know that they did not, because of John's statement to the contrary. But we also know that Moses, David, Elijah, and all the other OT saints had the Holy Spirit on them (they had received the Holy Spirit working in and through them), because we are told as much. It is entirely possible to receive the Holy Spirit and not have the indwelling as is evidenced by all the OT Saints.

Sorry, that is an error

Not only is there a vast difference between receiving a person and receiving a gift from a person but scripture sahow

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

both use the verb receive and both refer to the indwelling of the Spirit

Those two passages do indeed both use "receive" and both refer to the indwelling. But that does not mean that everywhere in Scripture that the phrase "receive the Holy Spirit" means the indwelling.

 

[TomL]

All this shows is that vindication is a POSSIBLE usage of the word. But when we go back to the passage that James is quoting (Gen 15:6) Justified is used in the sense of "declared righteous", not vindication. James' point is still that we are declared righteous because of the Blood of Christ through the actions we take in obedience to God's command, and without taking action we do not encounter the cleansing Blood of Christ.

Did you forget your words

Oh really? That would be you reading into Scripture what you want to find there. Now it is you who is changing the meaning of words to fit your interpretation.

You were in error with that claim

I changed nothing

further the very first source i cited



to be vindicated (state) — to be or become shown to be right by providing justification or proof.
Mt 11:19|| καὶ ἐδικαιώθη ἡ σοφία ἀπὸ τῶν ἔργων αὐτῆς.
Ro 3:4 Ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου
1 Co 4:4 οὐκ ἐν τούτῳ δεδικαίωμαι,
1 Ti 3:16 ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι,
Jas 2:21 Ἀβραὰμ ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, ἀνενέγκας Ἰσαὰκ
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

specifically mentions James 2:21

showing it is vindication that is in view

When he had FAITH, not just intellectual assent, and his faith was made perfect and complete by what he DID.

He was declared righteous because his actions completed and made perfect his faith. Without both he would not have been, as we are not, declared righteous.

He was counted as righteous when he believed(had faith)

Romans 4:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

it is reference to

Genesis 15:1–6 (ESV) — 1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

The declaration of righteousness was vindicated when he responded


Justification Is Not by Works

Isa. 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Rom. 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Rom. 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Is belief, in this passage, intellectual assent? Or is it faith?

Faith saves if it is real, alive, and active. If it is not real, not alive, and not active, then it does not, cannot, save.

Nothing there I would object to.

I would add his faith was genuine when he believed and demonstrated so when he added

When Abraham had FAITH he was counted as righteous. His intellectual assent meant nothing.

By now this should be understood to be a strawman

He was counted as righteous before he had acted and offered up his son

faith pre-exists its effects

 

[Truther]

How in the world does that do anything to show acts is being skipped

did you forget what you stated ?



Now do you care to actually explain how anyone is skipping Acts?

Anyone that takes a sinner from the gospels, skips Acts 2:38 and feeds them the Epistles(Rom 10:9) etc, is conducting Acts skipping.

Creating new belief systems in the process.

The RCC was, and is, the mother of all acts skippers.

 

[Truther]

I have no beef with water baptism. I believe we should do it.

I am not however a Jew who rejected baptism in the name of Christ.

and I am one who believed the many verses scripture provides which show one receives salvation upon faith.

Are you a gentile that rejects the command of Peter to the gentiles to be baptized in the name of Jesus?...


47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...


Yes, or no?

 

[Truther]

Peter said that to Jews who had rejected Christ and baptism in his name

I am not one of them

These are Jews?...

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...