No, in 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Law of Moses are not born again and those who are practicing righteousness are not hellhound sinners. The Mosaic Law is not God's instructions for how to establish our own goodness, but for how to testify about His goodness, which is why our good works in obedience to it bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). In the same way, the Mosaic Law is not God's instructions for how to become self-righteous, but for how to testify about God's righteousness, and so forth for other aspects of God's nature.
Lordship Salvation in a Nutshell
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Behold
Well-known member
The Law of Moses is the Old covenant.
The Cross of Christ is the New Covenant.
They are not the same., They are not related.
While I agree that the New Covenant is different from the Mosaic Covenant, in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Law of Moses in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so following the Law of Moses is not one of the ways that the covenants are different.
Behold
Well-known member
Edit by admin. Please do not call our members by derogatory names. It's fine to disagree with people just don't make it personal and use putdowns.
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Unmerited
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Here's the whole post https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/lordship-salvation-in-a-nutshell.17/
You get a better idea what the threads about by reading the whole post instead of one sentence.
You get a better idea what the threads about by reading the whole post instead of one sentence.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The primary difference is that we are not saved by following the law. But the Spirit of God within us motivates us to obey His moral commands, chief among them being the 10 commandments. IMO, the exceptions are the laws that were meant to make Israel separate from all other cultures, like the dietary laws, no trimming of beards, etc.
Unmerited
New member
To me it's real simple, it's just making Jesus Lord of your life. Abide in Jesus, In other words live in him. We obey him because we love him because he saved us. Not because we're trying to earn brownie points. It's as simple as you can have a good relationship By being submitted to our Lord. Or you can have a not so good relationship by living your Christian Life for yourself.
It's like that old saying... we do good works because we are saved not to get saved or stay saved. When you saved your new creation your old Selfish life is Behind you. No turning back, no turning back, Just follow Jesus.
It is not the case that anyone has ever been required to have first obeyed the Mosaic Law in order to become saved as the result, so that was never the purpose for why we should obey it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so that has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed the Mosaic Law, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.
Saying that God has moral commands implies that we can be acting morally while disobeying God's other commands, however, there is no example where disobedience to any of God's commands is stated as being moral, nor to I see justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. All legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done, so for someone to claim that some of God's laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws, which is therefore also to claim to have claim to have greater moral knowledge than God. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the mishpatim and the chukim, and the chukim include laws that you've arbitrarily made exceptions for.
In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to obey God's instructions for how to fulfill those roles, and there is no point in a Gentile wanting to become part of a holy nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of holy nation. So Gentiles are also called to be set apart as a moral obligation.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Do you plan to make all the daily sacrifices according to the law? That is part of the law. Will you abstain from any foods considered unclean? That's part of the law.
I'm not a Levite and there is no temple, but I do refrain from eating unclean animals.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The Levites performed the action, but everyone was required to submit animals for sacrifice. If there was a temple, would you bring sacrifices?
If all of Israel had accepted Jesus as the Messiah, then the 2nd temple would not have been destroyed and there would still be offerings being made.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Jesus ended the sacrifice and offering, which is why a 3rd temple wouldn't make any sense.
In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came not to abolish the law and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same, so you are calling him a liar and disregarding his warning. In Acts 18:18, Paul took a vow involving shaving his head and the only vow prescribed in the Bible that involves doing that is a Nazarite vow in Numbers 6, which involves making offerings. Likewise, in Acts 21:20-24, Paul planned to pay for the offerings of others in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against God's law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. So offerings did not cease with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only ceased because of the destruction of the temple. In Ezekiel 40-46, it speaks about a time when another temple will be built and when offerings will resume.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
You failed to notice that God tore the curtain to the holy of holies from top to bottom? Jesus did away with the whole sacrificial system. He was, Himself, the ultimate sacrifice.
The Bible contains many examples of people tearing their garments upon someone's death, that has nothing to do with God ending any of His eternal laws. All of God's laws testify about the truth of who He is, so the only way that they can be done away with is by God first doing away with who He is, but God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
DavidTree
Well-known member
i do not see "lordship salvation" in the Gospel, but i do see Truth and Grace came to us thru Jesus Christ.
Salvation is by Grace and it is the Gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.
When we receive His Grace unto Salvation we are also kneeling at the Feet of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ = Daily
Jesus did say: "Why call me Lord if you do no do the things I say?"
Does this constitute "lordship salvation" - Nope, but it does verify that we are to be followers and doers of the Word.
JESUS is LORD of lords and KING of kings AND He is the Savior of the world.
What you could say is that by JESUS Lordship over sin HE inherited a Name above all names and that at the Name of JESUS CHRIST every knee shall bow and every tongue confess JESUS Christ as LORD(all JWs pay attention).
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
People didn't rend the curtains from top to bottom. God did. That was the end of coming to God through sacrifice and priests.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
The sacrificial system was the former way to have your sins forgiven. If you want to participate in that, you are not only denying that you can approach the throne of grace by yourself, you are saying Christ didn't die for all your sins and you need to make a sacrifice to add to His work.
The Bible does not state that that is what the tearing of the curtain meant. It is absurd to think that we can deny God's word made flesh by obeying God's word. In Titus 2:11-4, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), and this is not adding to His work, but rather it is acting in accordance with it, while it is returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from that would be the way to deny his work.
In Psalms 119:29, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he sent his ministry teaching us to obey God's law by word and by example. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not doing good works. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not obeying it. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doin good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, in regard to saying that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, so the position that we are required to be followers and doers of the Word is lordship salvation.
