Jesus denied being God

[mikesw]

As we can verify by asking any Jew, or reading any Jew literature, Jew scholars and teachers have never thought that Elohim means several divine persons. They have always seen in the Creator a Personal God. That's the essence of Judaism!
Some scholars think that Elohim reflects a majestic plural while some others that it reflects the ancient polytheistic background of Israel and Mesopotamia, in which El was the supreme god among many gods.

In addition to your rejection of the Triune nature of God, you also have the scope of Jewish perspectives incorrectly limited. The book Two Powers in Heaven by Alan Segal shows that Jews had been seeking to understand the conflict between texts that had God in his oneness and those passages that reflected two divine figures both appearing to be God. Of course the broader historical problem (in the BC years) was of the Israel people following other gods.

 

[Peterlag]

Totally missing the point

an impersonal thing does not have a mind, cannot think, cannot consider etc

This has nothing at all to do with the KJV

That was 23 Bibles that say Jesus did not think he was equal with God. This is your verse that you keep saying I'm not answering. Here look again. Here's 23 Bibles saying Jesus did not think he was equal with God...

Here's 23 different Bibles saying what I just said. That Jesus did not consider himself equel to God.

New International Version
...did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
...he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
...did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASB 1995
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NASB 1977
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Legacy Standard Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Amplified Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted

Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
...counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
...did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

English Revised Version
...counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

Good News Translation
...he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.

Literal Standard Version
...thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,

Majority Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New American Bible
...did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

NET Bible
...did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

New Revised Standard Version
...did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

New Heart English Bible
...did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

World English Bible
...didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 

[mikesw]

That was 23 Bibles that say Jesus did not think he was equal with God. This is your verse that you keep saying I'm not answering. Here look again. Here's 23 Bibles saying Jesus did not think he was equal with God...

Here's 23 different Bibles saying what I just said. That Jesus did not consider himself equel to God.

New International Version
...did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
...he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
...did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASB 1995
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NASB 1977
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Legacy Standard Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Amplified Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted

Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
...counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
...did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

English Revised Version
...counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

Good News Translation
...he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.

Literal Standard Version
...thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,

Majority Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New American Bible
...did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

NET Bible
...did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

New Revised Standard Version
...did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

New Heart English Bible
...did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

World English Bible
...didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Peterlag has just given strong evidence of his inability to grasp the text.

 

[Administrator]

Peterlag has just given strong evidence of his inability to grasp the text.

Thats ok, as he can believe what he likes. Same go for all of us here at BAM.

 

[mikesw]

Peterlag has just given strong evidence of his inability to grasp the text.

Of course Philippians 2:5–8 would be too common if applied to mere humans. It would hardly be a great insight to say that Mike did not consider equality with God as even a concept to be discussed. There is no one who would say Mike has the form of God. Consequently there is no reason to say Mike could grasp having the form of God such that he humbles himself of that. Then it not necessary to add that Mike had to empty himself of that godly form.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have always believed that the Word was in Genesis doing the speaking.

Yes, I agree.
John 1 is linked to Genesis 1, focusing on The Word as the vehicle of God's creation ("Then God said...").
Thanks for sharing your insights!

 

[TomL]

That was 23 Bibles that say Jesus did not think he was equal with God. This is your verse that you keep saying I'm not answering. Here look again. Here's 23 Bibles saying Jesus did not think he was equal with God...

Here's 23 different Bibles saying what I just said. That Jesus did not consider himself equel to God.

New International Version
...did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
...he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
...did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASB 1995
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NASB 1977
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Legacy Standard Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Amplified Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted

Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
...counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
...did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

English Revised Version
...counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

Good News Translation
...he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.

Literal Standard Version
...thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,

Majority Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New American Bible
...did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

NET Bible
...did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

New Revised Standard Version
...did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

New Heart English Bible
...did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

World English Bible
...didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Again you are skirting the issue which is personal pre-existance

An impersonal thing cannot have a mind, think or consider, display humility etc

Please address the correct issue or i will have to assume you are dodging it because you cannot.

 

[Peterlag]

Again you are skirting the issue which is personal pre-existance

An impersonal thing cannot have a mind, think or consider, display humility etc

Please address the correct issue or i will have to assume you are dodging it because you cannot.

We have been over this before and because you can't understand is why you say I'm not answering. There is no Scripture that talks about a personal or impersonal thing or a pre-existance. I find these words in no Scripture. So once again, you do not ask about a verse, but you ask about what's in you mind and then blame me for not explaining you.

 

[synergy]

Again you are skirting the issue which is personal pre-existance

An impersonal thing cannot have a mind, think or consider, display humility etc

Please address the correct issue or i will have to assume you are dodging it because you cannot.

He has a hard time comprehending concepts. He needs to literally see words like "preexistence" or "humility" in the text before he is willing to discuss that topic.

 

[Peterlag]

Peterlag has just given strong evidence of his inability to grasp the text.

A good 23 Bibles saying Jesus did not consider himself equal with God that I put in front of you from your own verse that you say proves a trinity. And what do you say concerning these 23 Bibles? You say I can't grasp the text. I know you want it to say Jesus considered himself equal with God. But it does not say that. All 23 Bibles do not say that.

Here's 23 different Bibles saying what I just said. That Jesus did not consider himself equal to God.

New International Version
...did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
...he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
...did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASB 1995
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NASB 1977
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Legacy Standard Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Amplified Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted

Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
...counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
...did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

English Revised Version
...counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

Good News Translation
...he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.

Literal Standard Version
...thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,

Majority Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New American Bible
...did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

NET Bible
...did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

New Revised Standard Version
...did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

New Heart English Bible
...did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

World English Bible
...didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 

[mikesw]

A good 23 Bibles saying Jesus did not consider himself equal with God that I put in front of you from your own verse that you say proves a trinity. And what do you say concerning these 23 Bibles? You say I can't grasp the text. I know you want it to say Jesus considered himself equal with God. But it does not say that. All 23 Bibles do not say that.

Here's 23 different Bibles saying what I just said. That Jesus did not consider himself equal to God.

New International Version
...did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
...he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Berean Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Berean Literal Bible
...did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASB 1995
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NASB 1977
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Legacy Standard Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Amplified Bible
...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted

Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
...counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
...did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

English Revised Version
...counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God,

Good News Translation
...he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.

Literal Standard Version
...thought [it] not something to be seized to be equal to God,

Majority Standard Bible
...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New American Bible
...did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

NET Bible
...did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

New Revised Standard Version
...did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

New Heart English Bible
...did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

World English Bible
...didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Of course Philippians 2:5–8 would be too common if applied to mere humans. It would hardly be a great insight to say that Mike did not consider equality with God as even a concept to be discussed. There is no one who would say Mike has the form of God. Consequently there is no reason to say Mike could grasp having the form of God such that he humbles himself of that. Then it not necessary to add that Mike had to empty himself of that godly form.

My response still stands.

Here's the final statement about meaning in the TDNT on ἁρπαγμός

Hence we may translate: “He did not regard it as a gain to be equal with God.” The negative formulation is readily understandable, for it is a great gain to be equal with God and “everyone” would utilise it. In justification of the negative formulation, therefore, we do not need think of the fall of Adam (“Ye shall be as God”) or the fall of the devil. Nor is there any suggestion of a pre-temporal temptation of Christ, since the reference is not so much to temptation as to a free act, and in this connection we are not to link ἁρπαγμός with any thought of robbery or seizure by force. Against all expectation, Jesus did not regard equality with God as a gain to be utilised.

Note that ἁρπαγμός reflects more of seizing rather than grasping a concept mentality, as we might use "grasp."

 

[TomL]

He has a hard time comprehending concepts. He needs to literally see words like "preexistence" or "humility" in the text before he is willing to discuss that topic.

Well I posted them and I asked multiple times for him to address the issue, so I will have to conclude he is dodging

 

[TomL]

We have been over this before and because you can't understand is why you say I'm not answering. There is no Scripture that talks about a personal or impersonal thing or a pre-existance. I find these words in no Scripture. So once again, you do not ask about a verse, but you ask about what's in you mind and then blame me for not explaining you.

Wake up

Your theology denies Christ's pre-existence

Phil 2:5FF discusses the mind of Christ previous to becoming flesh

It talks about him having a mind and considering and making himself of no reputation

These are not things that can be associated an impersonal thing

Apparently you are not capable of dealing with the passage

 

[Peterlag]

Wake up

Your theology denies Christ's pre-existence

Phil 2:5FF discusses the mind of Christ previous to becoming flesh

It talks about him having a mind and considering and making himself of no reputation

These are not things that can be associated an impersonal thing

Apparently you are not capable of dealing with the passage

How does the mind of Christ get to be associated with an impersonal thing? I never said that. I never read anyone saying that. Only you say that. Words matter and your question makes no sense.

 

[Peterlag]

My response still stands.

Here's the final statement about meaning in the TDNT on ἁρπαγμός


Note that ἁρπαγμός reflects more of seizing rather than grasping a concept mentality, as we might use "grasp."

Here's my take...
“considered equality with God not something to be grasped at.” After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” Translated that way, the phrase is a powerful argument against the Trinity. If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. It only makes sense to compliment someone for not seeking equality when he is not equal. Some Trinitarians say “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

 

[Runningman]

So who do you think is Jesus' Father since he has no human father?

God is not a human whereas Jesus is. Two different categories. Jesus on the other hand does have genealogical fathers.

Matt 1
1This is the genealogy a of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Only exclusively through Jesus can one see the Father. That is Jesus exclusive.

That is not a Jesus exclusive. I have posted this upwards of 10 times and you seem to just be rejecting it or not reading it. Here it is again.

John 14
7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Acts 2:33
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

By the very fact that Jesus received the Holy Spirit means he isn't God. He didn't inherently have that.

Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit. Jesus did that exclusively.

Acts 2:33 refers to the Father having poured out the Holy Spirit. This is mentioned in a few places that clarify exactly who did it.

Jesus needed to ask the Father to give the Spirit:

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth...

Acts 1
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with a water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

As you just admitted, we have you on record stating "Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit" and it says the Father did it.

Game.
Set.
Match.

But we will continue anyway because I know from experience it's not enough to just debunk the deity once for a Trin.

Finally, you admit to 2 Thrones. Now follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

You have just proven that Trinitarianism is idolatry.

Step 1: sitting on the Father's throne means someone is God
Step 2: Jesus' throne is God's throne
Step 3: Those who overcome share the throne with Jesus.
Step 4: Therefore Christians are on equal footing with Lord God Almighty
Step 5: Trinitarianism promotes sin

Revelation 3
21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Unitarians believe that sharing the throne with Jesus does not make someone God because Jesus is not God. No idolatry in Unitarianism.

Excellent Trinitarian verse. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Let us summarize the facts that prove Jesus is God:

1. Jesus was born of a Virgin. Nobody else was born of a Virgin.
2. Jesus can see the Father. Nobody else can see the Father except exclusively through Jesus.
3. Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. Nobody else poured out the Holy Spirit.
4. Jesus sits on the Father's Throne. Nobody else sits on the Father's Throne with the Father and the Son.

You take your man god theology too far.

Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

Jesus isn't the Lord of heaven and earth:

Matt 11
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Jesus isn't the Holy Spirit:

Matt 12
32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

Jesus isn't the Lord God Almighty:

Revelation 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Jesus isn't YHWH:

Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.

Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord and Creator:

Acts 4
24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
27...Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

Jesus, the Lamb, is not Lord God Almighty:

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Jesus isn't the True God:

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You,[the Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

1 Thessalonians 1
9For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

Jesus is not the Father:

Matt 23
9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
God is not the Son of Man or a man:

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Does He speak and not act?
Does He promise and not fulfill?

Jesus the son of Abraham:

Matt 1
1This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

The Father the God of Abraham:

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.
Jesus the mediator between God and men:

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

God the Father is Jesus' Savior:

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and

Jesus is not the invisible God:

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Jesus is not God and Father of the church:

Romans 1
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is not the One God:

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

The Word of God is not the testimony of Jesus:

Revelation 1
2who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,

God illuminates the city, the Lamb a lamp:

Revelation 21
23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

They don't need the lamp anymore:

Revelation 22
5There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.

God isn't the son of Abraham:

Matthew 1
1This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

 

[Runningman]

Powerful statement. Not from your intellect, but from God who has revealed to you.
Thanks for sharing with us this truth.

I just speak the truth that I am grateful God has apparently blessed me with. It certainly isn't for everyone. Not everyone can receive these words, but nevertheless they should get a chance to try.

 

[Runningman]

God is spirit: He does not eat, sweat, breath, sleep or reproduce. He does not beget sons.
So, If the Bible says that Christ is his begotten son, it must be in a metaphorical sense.
You should be clearly interested in recognizing this, since he who is begotten cannot be eternal.

CONCLUSION : Your attempt to derive the nature of Jesus based on the title “Son of God” has been refuted.

Fortunately, to refute or be refuted is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you fully embrace @Runningman, @Petelag and @Studyman as your brothers in Christ.


Yes, seriously.
It promotes a behavior far more compassionate than the one we both exhibit in this Forum, chopping off heads included.

Yes. Nicodemus may have had the same sort of misunderstanding about this when he asked if a man can enter his mother's womb again and be born a second time. This kind of question was so absurd that I can only conclude he must have been being sarcastic, but I get the feeling that, even though Nic was allegedly a master teacher, that he might have not been very smart about anything else.

Like, Jesus, the Son of Man, who did not literally descend from the sky as a human, despite him saying so, we, too, can come from above. It isn't about literally being begotten. Some people misunderstand that being from above is the same thing Jesus has as what the normal child of God is supposed to have.

John 3
13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

[synergy]

I just speak the truth that I am grateful God has apparently blessed me with. It certainly isn't for everyone. Not everyone can receive these words, but nevertheless they should get a chance to try.

God certainly blessed you with humility.

 

[Runningman]

UM you denied scripture, misunderstood or used third hand out of context snippets

You took the sources I gave you and denied the fact that they plainly spoke of possible translations other than the one in biased Trinitarian bibles. Trinitarians don't hold the monopoly on the Greek language. You are simply defending your errors because your theology requires it.