Jesus denied being God

[civic]

Here's my take...
“considered equality with God not something to be grasped at.” After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” Translated that way, the phrase is a powerful argument against the Trinity. If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. It only makes sense to compliment someone for not seeking equality when he is not equal. Some Trinitarians say “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

We don't need your take to explain away scripture- these translations show He was equal with God- the Father.

Young's Literal Translation
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,

New International Version
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

King James Bible
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

These clearly show the Sons equality with the Father.

next fallacy

 

[TomL]

We don't need your take to explain away scripture- these translations show He was equal with God- the Father.

Young's Literal Translation
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,

New International Version
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

New Living Translation
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

King James Bible
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

American Standard Version
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,

These clearly show the Sons equality with the Father.

next fallacy

Yeah, and he is not even addressing the point raised

 

[civic]

Yeah, and he is not even addressing the point raised

ditto

 

[Wilber]

Jesus did not need to grasp at being equal because He already had it. Jesus was God in the Flesh. Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man at the same time. From all eternity the Son has been enjoying the love and glory that He shares with God the Father as a member of the Trintiy. So it was not new to Him or something to grasp at.

the Bible identifies God the Son as the Creator of all things. Referring to Him as the Word, the apostle John writes “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

 

[TomL]

Jesus did not need to grasp at being equal because He already had it. Jesus was God in the Flesh. Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man at the same time. From all eternity the Son has been enjoying the love and glory that He shares with God the Father as a member of the Trintiy. So it was not new to Him or something to grasp at.

the Bible identifies God the Son as the Creator of all things. Referring to Him as the Word, the apostle John writes “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

Yes, but the Unitarians deny even that fact

One even absurdly opined the bible nowhere teaches Christ created

 

[Runningman]

You're evading the question. Name the father.

You continue to have reading problems. I said "Only exclusively through Jesus can one see the Father." Who else can we see the Father through?

False. It was Jesus who poured out the Holy Spirit.

That's perfectly Trinitarian because we believe in the Father also, not just in one Person doing everything.

Rev 3:21 declares 2 Thrones. With this critical error of yours, you can toss the rest of your points out the window. Bible verses stay because they all promote Trinitarianism.

Give me one verse where Jesus explicitly says he is not God. Just one. In fact, he declared just the opposite in John 8:58.

You're still here? You just admitted that only God can pour out the Holy Spirit then it says the Father was the one who poured out or sent the Holy Spirit in more places than one on Pentecost. I'm going to ride this. How are you going to save face after such a humiliating admission?

Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit. Jesus did that exclusively.

Acts 2:33 refers to the Father having poured out the Holy Spirit. This is mentioned in a few places that clarify exactly who did it.

Jesus needed to ask the Father to give the Spirit:

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth...

Acts 1
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with a water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

As you just admitted, we have you on record stating "Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit" and it says the Father did it.

Game.
Set.
Match.

But we will continue anyway because I know from experience it's not enough to just debunk the deity once for a Trin.

 

[Runningman]

Give it up

This is not proverbs

Proverbs 8 isn't Proverbs? That's a new one. Stop running and address my posts.

me introduce you to Proverbs 8 where wisdom, an impersonal being, has a mind, can think, and is a woman.

No need to post the entire chapter. Just begin here so you get the idea where this is going.

Proverbs 8
1Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;

There is no personification in Phil 2:5

Philippians 2:5–9 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Philippians 2:5-8 sets the context as Paul instructing the church of Philippi to have the mind of Jesus. Therefore, since the members of the church of Philippi are human, what they have in their mind must be humanly obtainable. Paul was not trying to suggest that they think they are God or equal to God or else the narrative of this entire passage changes into Paul teaching Christians they are equal to God.

So Phil. 2:5 ends with a colon. I take it you are pretty good at English punctuation, so I assume you know that where there is a colon a list begins that is related to what precedes the colon. Therefore, verses 6-8 are directly related to what Paul was telling the Philippians to have in their mind. Trinitarians misunderstand this passage with prejudice, but Paul was essentially telling them that they are not equal to God, though they can be in the outward appearance of God. They should be humble servants even though they look like humans, they are indeed not of this world. They should obey God, just like Jesus did, even if it means dying on a cross.

 

[Runningman]

Ignoring the point

Jesus was worshiped even as the father was worshiped

Revelation 5:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

even in heaven

The Lamb is never worshipped on the throne of God:

Revelation 4​

10the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:​

11“Worthy are You, our Lord and God,​

to receive glory and honor and power,​

for You created all things;​

by Your will they exist and came to be.”​

​

Revelation 5​

11Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.​

14And the four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.​

​

Revelation 7​

9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.​

10And they cried out in a loud voice:​

“Salvation to our God,​

who sits on the throne,​

and to the Lamb!”​

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,​

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you ignore this

John 5:16–23 (KJV 1900) — 16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Men are to honor Christ as they honor the father because he does everything the father does

Revelation 5:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Unitarians fail to honor the son as the father is honored, and therefore they do not honor the father

I have already addressed this twice. You're running Tom. You're basically just out of ideas and pasting the same things I have already replied to repeatedly.

Here is my answer again. Answer my replies if you can.

The passage in John 5 that refers to honoring the Father as they do the Son refers to judgement. It means we are to honor Jesus' judgements because God has entrusted judgement to Jesus. Jesus, who does what the Father does, can judge like the Father, but ultimately Jesus does not actually do the real judging. He simply judges in accordance with the will of the Father.

I would forgive you if you were a modalist, but Jesus clearly is not God. He relies on God to make the judgements. Trinitarianism is downright inexcusable in light of what Jesus said.

 

[Runningman]

So what

It means to become flesh

Incarnate

a. Invested with bodily nature and form: an incarnate spirit.

The bible teaches the word became flesh

John 1:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So you admit it was not an incarnation then?

 

[TomL]

You're still here? You just admitted that only God can pour out the Holy Spirit then it says the Father was the one who poured out or sent the Holy Spirit in more places than one on Pentecost. I'm going to ride this. How are you going to save face after such a humiliating admission?


Acts 2:33 refers to the Father having poured out the Holy Spirit. This is mentioned in a few places that clarify exactly who did it.

Jesus needed to ask the Father to give the Spirit:

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth...

Acts 1
4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with a water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

As you just admitted, we have you on record stating "Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit" and it says the Father did it.

Game.
Set.
Match.

But we will continue anyway because I know from experience it's not enough to just debunk the deity once for a Trin.

UM

Acts 2:33 (KJV 1900) — 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

John 15:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[TomL]

So you admit it was not an incarnation then?

Can you read?

I stated just the opposite

 

[Runningman]

Apparently you are ignorant of the fact aion by means of metonomy can refer to the world

2. by meton. of the container for the contained, οἱ αἰῶνες denotes the worlds, the universe, i. e. the aggregate of things contained in time, [on the plur. cf. W. 176 (166); B. 24 (21)]: Heb. 1:2; 11:3; and (?) 1 Tim. 1:17; [Rev. 15:3 WH txt.; cf. Ps. 144 (145):13; Tob. 13:6, 10; Sir. 36:22; Philo de plant. Noë § 12 bis; de mundo § 7; Joseph. antt. 1, 18, 7; Clem. Rom. 1 Cor. 61, 2; 35, 3 (πατὴρ τ. α.); 55, 6 (θεὸς τ. α.); Constt. Ap. 7, 34; see Abbot in Journ. Soc. Bibl. Lit. etc. i. p. 106 n.]. So αἰών in Sap. 13:9; 14:6; 18:4; the same use occurs in the Talmud, Chaldee, Syriac, Arabic; cf. Bleek, Hebräerbr. ii. 1, p. 36 sqq.; Gesenius, Thesaur. ii. p. 1036; [cf. the use of οἱ αἰῶνες in the Fathers i. q. the world of mankind, e.g. Ignat. ad Eph. 19, 2].

Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 19.


and if you read a little further on down in Hebrews

Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

confirmed throughout scripture

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

You need to stop fighting scripture

I already gave you the literal definition of aion from a concordance, helps word studies, and a literal translation. It is not worlds, or universe. As I already pointed out, there is already a word for that in Greek.

You are running from my post again. You have addressed nothing I said. Let's post it again and let you deal with it what I actually said first.

This passage is not about creation of the unvierse therefore it's not about upholding the universe with his words. The context is concerning the church and it actually debunks Jesus being the Creator when it's understood what it's saying.

I would first like to go ahead and knock down the fact that Hebrews 1:2 does not say God created the "worlds" or "universe" through the Son. There are already good words for the literal, physical, universe such as kosmō where the Father is said to be the Creator of the literal physical world. However, in Hebrews 1:2, we have the word aiōnas which doesn't means worlds or universe even though many Bibles perversely say it means that.

G165. aión ►

Strong's Concordance aión: a space of time, an age Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: aión Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn') Definition: a space of time, an age Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity. HELPS Word-studies 165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

So as you can see, it's pretty clear that the literal translation of Hebrews 1:2 says God made the ages by speaking through His Son in these last days. It's plain in the passage that God didn't speak through the Son in the past, when God spoke to create the universe, but rather was speaking through the prophets. In these last days is when God began speaking through His Son to make the church age/messianic age. God spoke through Jesus like a prophet like the other prophets.

The context of Hebrews 1:3 relates to Jesus being a high priest and upholding all things in the church with his words. It doesn't refer to literally all things. Doesn't match the context, doesn't match Scripture, etc. The verse Hebrews 1:4 only support the fact that Jesus is not God. Hebrews 1:4, for starters, says Jesus inherited his name and became superior to angels. This proves that what Jesus has was not inherently his in the first place, but was rather obtained later as Jesus became something he originally was not.

Read it again and see if you understand it better:

Hebrews 1 (Berean Literal Bible)
1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages, 3who, being the radiance of His glory and the exact expression of His substance, and upholding all things by the power of His word, through having made the purification of sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become by so much superior to the angels, as much as He has inherited a name more excellent beyond theirs.

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you cannot read

John 1:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The word(the same, him) not God is the dominant subject

and you have no idea how to harmonize scripture

Colossians 1:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

You really do need to stop your desperate war against scripture

You have one again addressed nothing I said but instead changed the subject. If you're going to debate, I expect you give my posts the same due diligence, time, and attention that I have given all of yours. Read it again and actually address the facts.

So Jesus was only a man then.

Acts 4:23-30 contradicts your bad theology concerning the Word. It says the Sovereign Lord they prayed to is the Creator. In that same prayer they refferred to Jesus as the Creator's servant. Therefore Jesus is not the Creator.

John 1 also doesn't call the Word the Creator.

Look at it again with fresh eyes:

John 1:1-2 says that the Word was with God in the beginning. Therefore the Word and God are not the same person. John 1:3 uses the "him" pronoun to refer to the closest noun which would be God, not the Word. Therefore, this verse says God is the Creator, not the Word.

John 1 (NIV)
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:9-10 repeats this. It uses the present tense to say the True Light was coming into the world after John the Baptist was already preaching. Since the True Light was coming into the world in the present tense, this would have placed Jesus at approximately 30 years old. Jesus had already been in the world for 30 years by the time the True Light was coming into the world. The world was made through the True Light, not the Word.

John 1 (NIV)
9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

The Bible contains no verses about Jesus being the Creator. When you're ready I hope you will start listening once you see the things I am pointing out to you are true.

 

[Runningman]

Again you show you are not capable of properly exegeting scripture

Men are to honor the son as they honor the father because all that the father does, Jesus does

The text does not say to honor Jesus in judgment but to honor jesus as you honor the father

thus we see in heaven praise worship going to the father and the lamb equally

Revelation 5:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

You Unitarians fail to honor the son as you honor the father, thus you fail to honor the father

The context is only about Judgement. You dishonor him by distorting his words. Furthermore, honor doesn't mean what you are proposing it does. Grab a dictionary and read.

 

[Runningman]

Sorry I showed all support the deity of the Word and none supported the unitarian idea of a non-personal thing

It's rather funny you tried to appeal to something that refutes your theology.

You have showed absolutely nothing about the deity of Jesus that hasn't been bunked or properly exegeted.

 

[Runningman]

Yeah, and he is not even addressing the point raised

You're at the point of just dismissing all of my replies as if nothing was said when I took the time to actually write out well-written responses for you. I see you are not actually capable of having a debate, like a one tricky pony. After you make your talking point, it gets refuted, then you got nothing. You just say people are running away and then you post the same refuted rebuttal. It's bad. The worst kind of debate.

 

[TomL]

I have already addressed this twice. You're running Tom. You're basically just out of ideas and pasting the same things I have already replied to repeatedly.

Here is my answer again. Answer my replies if you can.

The passage in John 5 that refers to honoring the Father as they do the Son refers to judgement. It means we are to honor Jesus' judgements because God has entrusted judgement to Jesus. Jesus, who does what the Father does, can judge like the Father, but ultimately Jesus does not actually do the real judging. He simply judges in accordance with the will of the Father.

I would forgive you if you were a modalist, but Jesus clearly is not God. He relies on God to make the judgements. Trinitarianism is downright inexcusable in light of what Jesus said.

Sorry no

You ignore the text does not say to honor the son only in or because he has all judgment

It does say to honor him as you honor the father

And the following text shows

John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


He does all the Father does

Like the Father he raises the Dead

Like the Father, he gives life

He has all judgment

The Father loves him


For all those reasons you are to honor the son as you honor the Father

But you deny the son that honor so you do not honor the father

 

[Runningman]

Yes, but the Unitarians deny even that fact

One even absurdly opined the bible nowhere teaches Christ created

Jesus said he was created.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

 

[TomL]

You're at the point of just dismissing all of my replies as if nothing was said when I took the time to actually write out well-written responses for you. I see you are not actually capable of having a debate, like a one tricky pony. After you make your talking point, it gets refuted, then you got nothing. You just say people are running away and then you post the same refuted rebuttal. It's bad. The worst kind of debate.

You make two obvious mistakes

The text is not speaking of you

And the issue raised here is one of preexistence which the poster referred to totally misses