Jesus denied being God

[synergy]

I didn’t say you said it. No strawman.
If you still don’t understand why I am bringing this as a counterargument, I invite you to think and then, if in doubt, ask.

Since I didn't say it, it's irrelevant. Can we stick with what's relevant please?

My crazy idea comes from the fact that The text says “at the right of God” and not “at the right of the Father”.
God cannot sit on the right hand of Himself.
So, Jesus is one Person, and God is another Person.

Once again, your mind betrayed your words. Your mind read “The Father” when the text said “God”.
This happens because, as the rest of us, you can only visualize The Father as God.
You are not a Trinitarian, synergy. You can’t be. Your God is and has always been One Person: The Father.

If I was truly a Unitarian then John 1:1 "the Word was God" would then make me a Modalist. Tell us how you, as a Unitarian, can believe John 1:1 and not be a Modalist?

• You don’t know what “worshiping Jesus” means.
• Your definition of an idol is incorrect. Jesus cannot be an idol, neither for Trinitarians nor for Unitarians. An idol takes us away from God. Jesus takes us to God.

You're mixing up obeisance/reverence with worship. What's happening at the Father's Throne is definitely worship, not obeisance.

• Your definition of idolatry is primitive and irrelevant to the choices we make in our daily life.
• Finally, Your three-step argument is incorrect: Praising Jesus and bowing to Jesus is not idolatry, because it is done not for the sake of Jesus, but for the glory of the Father, who is the Only and True God.

You have the right to repeat your arguments, as I to refute them, as many times as needed.

Your attempt to downgrade the worship that is given to the Father's Throne down to obeisance will not work.
This is typical of how heresies always attempt to downgrade the Deity of the Father and the Son.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

False dichotomy. There is the spiritual dimension

I know there is a spiritual dimension.
I just don’t that such spiritual dimension implies spiritual copulation, spiritual fertilization, spiritual pregnancy and spiritual labor.
The title “Son of God” is a metaphor, not just for me but for you.
Therefore, the title does not give deity to Christ.

that you continue to skip over.

Again, here is a good explanation that I sent you earlier. Since you haven't offered any counterargument to it, I take it you agree with it.

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? Was Jesus always the Son of God, or did He become the Son of God at the incarnation?

www.gotquestions.org

Did you really click on the link and read the article?
The subject of the article is a different topic. The article discusses whether the Sonship of Jesus is eternal or started at Incarnation or other point of time. It does not addresses how sonship implies deity and how is compatible with eternality. The authors of the article take these things for granted, as they are addressing a Trinitarian audience.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If I was truly a Unitarian then John 1:1 "the Word was God" would then make me a Modalist. Tell us how you, as a Unitarian, can believe John 1:1 and not be a Modalist?

It would be great if you were a Modalist !
As a modalist You would recognize that you have a loving relationship with God as One Single Person, who manifests Himself as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You wouldn’t think you are degrading Jesus. Jesus would be a form God takes to reach you. In addition, You would be much more willing to embrace Nicaean Trinitarians and Unitarians.

***

Regarding your question on why I am not a modalist, Baha’is are in some way modalists in practice. In contrast with Muslims, our theology includes the concept of Manifestations of God. This is why Bahaullah explains that, if Jesus had said “I am God” he would have said the truth.

You're mixing up obeisance/reverence with worship.

We will continue to mix obeissance with worship until we get an objective example of worship in our daily life. That’s why I have insisted in getting that example. I don’t mean to bother anybody: it is just that I truly believe we don’t understand what worshiping means these days.

 

[synergy]

It would be great if you were a Modalist !
As a modalist You would recognize that you have a loving relationship with God as One Single Person, who manifests Himself as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You wouldn’t think you are degrading Jesus. Jesus would be a form God takes to reach you. In addition, You would be much more willing to embrace Nicaean Trinitarians and Unitarians.

***

Regarding your question on why I am not a modalist, Baha’is are in some way modalists in practice. In contrast with Muslims, our theology includes the concept of Manifestations of God. This is why Bahaullah explains that, if Jesus had said “I am God” he would have said the truth.

I can can see how Baha'i are Modalists in their beliefs. Thanks for that honest observation.

I cannot be a Modalist because in addition to stating that "the Word was God", John 1:1 also states that 'the Word was with (face to face, in the Greek) with God". IOW, two separate entities that are God. Isn't John 1:1 just amazing!

We will continue to mix obeissance with worship until we get an objective example of worship in our daily life. That’s why I have insisted in getting that example. I don’t mean to bother anybody: it is just that I truly believe we don’t understand what worshiping means these days.

This is how I see it:

Worship is absolute worship. Direct worship of God.
Obeisance/reverence is relative worship. It's worshipping God through others, through God's creation, etc...

Since Jesus is God according to John 1:1, then we must worship him in the absolute sense, not in a relative obeisance sense.

 

[mikesw]

It would be great if you were a Modalist !
As a modalist You would recognize that you have a loving relationship with God as One Single Person, who manifests Himself as The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You wouldn’t think you are degrading Jesus. Jesus would be a form God takes to reach you. In addition, You would be much more willing to embrace Nicaean Trinitarians and Unitarians.

***

Regarding your question on why I am not a modalist, Baha’is are in some way modalists in practice. In contrast with Muslims, our theology includes the concept of Manifestations of God. This is why Bahaullah explains that, if Jesus had said “I am God” he would have said the truth.


We will continue to mix obeissance with worship until we get an objective example of worship in our daily life. That’s why I have insisted in getting that example. I don’t mean to bother anybody: it is just that I truly believe we don’t understand what worshiping means these days.

So you think we cannot or should not have a loving God who exists in a Triune relationship? Why would people despise God just for being Triune in nature and who then has relationship within that Triune existence?

Knowing God is a great part of our benefit as Christians. This includes knowing Christ in his divinity within the Godhead.

 

[TomL]

I have already provided evidence. Citing scripture, scholarly material, experts, etc.

UM you denied scripture, misunderstood or used third hand out of context snippets

 

[TomL]

Only in regards to judgement as Jesus said.

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Sorry but you simply ignored context

John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.



God wants you to honor the son as you honor him

You do not

Therefore you do not honor the father



Verse 23. That all men should honour the Son, &c.] If then the Son is to be honoured, EVEN AS the Father is honoured, then the Son must be God, as receiving that worship which belongs to God alone. To worship any creature is idolatry: Christ is to be honoured even as the Father is honoured; therefore Christ is not a creature; and, if not a creature, consequently the Creator. See chap. 1:3.
He that honoureth not the Son] God will not receive that man’s adoration who refuses to honour Jesus, even as he honours him.


Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 551.

That all men should honour, &c. To honour is to esteem, reverence, praise, do homage to. We honour one when we ascribe to him in our hearts, and words, and actions the praise and obedience which are due to him. We honour God when we obey him and worship him aright. We honour the Son when we esteem him to be as he is; when we have right views and feelings toward him. As he is declared to be God (Jn. 1:1), as he here says he has power and authority equal with God, so we honour him when we regard him as such. The primitive Christians are described by Pliny, in a letter to the Emperor Trajan, as meeting together to sing hymns to Christ as God. So we honour him aright when we regard him as possessed of wisdom, goodness, power, eternity, omniscience—equal with God.
Even as. To the same extent; in the same manner. Since the Son is to be honoured EVEN AS the Father, it follows that he must be equal with the Father. To honour the Father must denote religious homage, or the rendering of that honour which is due to God; so to honour the Son must also denote religious homage. If our Saviour here did not intend to teach that he ought to be worshipped, and to be esteemed as equal with God, it would be difficult to teach it by any language which we could use.
He that honoureth not the Son. He that does not believe on him, and render to him the homage which is his due as the equal of God.
Honoureth not the Father. Does not worship and obey the Father, the first person of the Trinity—that is, does not worship God


Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 231–232.

 

[TomL]

What else does John 8 say? The Father taught Jesus. Wow, Jesus needed to learn things just like a regular person does so that isn't omniscience Tom. If you don't believe he is the messiah you will indeed die in your sins. The messiah isn't God in Scripture.

John 8​

28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.​

​

Can anyone teach God? No. But Jesus can be taught.

​

Job 21​

22Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since He judges those on high?​

That is because he was both man and God. As a man he functioned as a man

There is still the Word who became flesh who created everything that was made

and as God he sustains creation

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

 

[TomL]

This passage is in regards to honoring the judgements of Jesus. There is no such inference of praying to Jesus or worshipping Jesus here so what you are suggesting is quite a stretch. You are making an argument that anyone is free to dismiss because it doesn't actually say what you misuse it for.

Afraid not

and you ignore context

John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

For the purpose

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

You continue to dishonor the father by not honoring him who he sent

 

[TomL]

Wow Jesus died like everyone else will. Though he was the first to be resurrected to eternal life, he certainly won't be the last.

And

He also sustains all creation

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


know any other man who does that

 

[TomL]

Great example is...

Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

There's nothing in the verse that says Jesus is God. You are not asking us to disprove a trinity verse. You are asking us to explain what's in your mind. The verse is telling the Christian to walk in the spirit by putting on the mind of Christ. I have no idea what else could be said about this verse. It does not mention God or a trinity.

Wake up the issue is the personal pre -existence of Christ

You denied it

The passage refutes you

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Care to explain how that is consistent with an impersonal thing

Something you Unitarians have failed to do previously though having many opportunities

 

[TomL]

If you think that Jesus is literally the begotten son of God, then you believe He had a beginning.

I don't know if you really understand what you say you believe.
In my case, I don't. I just spell out words, half-parrot, half-man.
What I fight is the arrogance to believe that we understand what we don't and will probably never understand. An arrogance that makes us point fingers to others and consider them heretics.

No read the verse

It refers either to the incarnation or the resurrection

It is not arrogance to believe what is written

Those that do not honor the son as they honor the father fail to honor the father.

PS if you do not know then study

 

[TomL]

Praying to the Son is not a requirement, as there are millions of Christians who believe in Jesus' deity and never pray to the Son, but to the Father.
So, if we have ruled out praying, tell me a single act in your daily life that you do as Trinitarian and that you would not do as Unitarian.

If you are UNABLE to put forward a single example, then "worship the Son" is empty of meaning, and you have judged the Unitarians wrongly


Believing that you and Unitarians are created by the same God means to be brothers in a religious sense.
An atheist would agree with you. Not a believer.
So, your statement "The Unitarians are not my brothers... not in a religious sense" violates your own understanding of religion. Besides, it deprives you from a great source of joy and spiritual growth. So I suggest you stop thinking like that, and act according to the spirit of Jesus who is in you.

Sorry the bible disagrees

You are to honor the son just as you honor the father

failing to do so you fail to honor the father

No I do not believe the Unitarians are my brothers in faith of the true God

nor do I believe those who deny Christ have his spirit in them

 

[MTMattie]

This is not correct.

1. First. Unitarians honor the Son as they honor the Father, because THERE IS NO WAY in which we can honor Jesus without honoring the Father, and THERE IS NO WAY in which we can honor Father without honoring Jesus.
2. Second. The verse refers to the honor people paid to an Ambassador of God, as evidence that they honored He who sent the Ambassador. Remember that Jesus was presenting his credentials as the One Sent by God, not as God.
3. Third. We should honor every each brother and sister as we honor Jesus. That doesn't mean that our brothers and sisters are Jesus.

So, the way you are judging your Unitarian brothers is unsupported by Bible and logics.

unsupported by Bible and logics......As is yours for the simple reason that not one thing you have posted here in your denials of what we believe is true. Why?... you would have provided book and verse that states what you have said,

AND do not dare come back with well, Jesus denied being God for we all have provided book and verse for the "I am" that we worship.

 

[TomL]

Praying to the Son is not a requirement, as there are millions of Christians who believe in Jesus' deity and never pray to the Son, but to the Father.
So, if we have ruled out praying, tell me a single act in your daily life that you do as Trinitarian and that you would not do as Unitarian.

If you are UNABLE to put forward a single example, then "worship the Son" is empty of meaning, and you have judged the Unitarians wrongly


Believing that you and Unitarians are created by the same God means to be brothers in a religious sense.

I can post many not just one

Matthew 8:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 28:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

The Unitarian is clearly not my brother in the faith

 

[MTMattie]

My brother:

Trusting in the efficacy of Jesus sacrifice does not depend on believing He was God.
The proposition you have posted is a non-sequitur fallacy.

If you disagree with me, I beg you to present your arguments.

Look Forrest...........

We believe in the shed blood of Jesus that ws provided by the Father as our sacrificial lamb.

Does he have to "BE" God. NO!!!!!!!!!! For he came to do for us what was needed....

Do I still believe He was God.... With out question. But then my mind has the ability to ponder on the wonderful mysteries that were provided by
the Heavenly Father.

Now you will reverse what I am saying here... but only because you wont understand.

But before going on... kindly tell me if it was you who indicated doubts about the virgin birth because I wont waste time on that

 

[MTMattie]

We don't need a verse in which Jesus explicitly denies being God, as we don't need a verse in which Enoch or Peter explicitly deny being God.
What we need is verses that indicate who is God. If we know who is God, then by definition, no other person is God.

Jesus tells us explicitly that His Father is God, his God, and The Only and True God.

 

[MTMattie]

Well, you have not still challenged the divine wisdom of the Holy Quran in declaring that "God has no son".
Unless you can explain how God begot a son "spiritually" and not metaphorically, your words against a Prophet of God are just sheer ignorance and vulgarity.

You already do not believe.

But as for me I will trust the prophets Ellen White, Joseph Smith and even John Calvin before I would listen to a word from Muhammad from a religion that traces its roots back to Ishmael and is regarded by Muslims as an Islamic prophet. Born to Abraham and Hagar,

While we trace our roots back to Abraham and Sarah who birthed Issac and moving forward.... eventually Jesus enters the line.

​

Yes, God promised Hagar that though her son would come a great nation... but it was through Isaac that would become the fulfillment of His grand plan.

You know the bible... which you discount most of the things , well enough to know the importance of David.... do you not.

Even to this very day the Muslims and Jews have been at odds.

 

[MTMattie]

So who do you think is Jesus' Father since he has no human father?

Did I miss an answer because I have been asking this of non-Trins for a very long time and it is another UN ANSWERED Question.

IN fact I think it has value to be its own thread....

 

[civic]

So who do you think is Jesus' Father since he has no human father?

Only exclusively through Jesus can one see the Father. That is Jesus exclusive.

Acts 2:33
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit. Jesus did that exclusively.

Finally, you admit to 2 Thrones. Now follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

Excellent Trinitarian verse. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Let us summarize the facts that prove Jesus is God:

1. Jesus was born of a Virgin. Nobody else was born of a Virgin.
2. Jesus can see the Father. Nobody else can see the Father except exclusively through Jesus.
3. Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. Nobody else poured out the Holy Spirit.
4. Jesus sits on the Father's Throne. Nobody else sits on the Father's Throne with the Father and the Son.

just more DE Nile and dishonoring the Son- Jesus said those who deny the Son the Father will also deny.

another Jesus exclusive.

Those who do not honor the Son do not honor the Father.

another Jesus exclusive

Those who deny He is the I Am will die in their sins.

another Jesus exclusive.

I'm sure we can provide at-least 50 Jesus exclusives.