Jesus denied being God

[TomL]

But they both walked on water.

And there's a giant list of things that Jesus either did, had, or received later that the regular rank and file Christian will get. Jesus was even resurrected to eternal life just like so many who come after him will be also.

So why did Jesus die if he's more than a man?

Because men die

And his life was a sacrifice on behalf of mankind

 

[MTMattie]

Because men die

And his life was a sacrifice on behalf of mankind

Without b;ood there is no sacrifice. He was made the sacrificial lamb for us. If you don't trust in the shed blood of Jesus what do you trust in.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's see... Jesus was born of a Virgin. Nobody else was born of a Virgin.

Deity is not compatible with being born.
The Father, the Only and True God, was not begotten. On the contrary: It is said from The Father that He begot The Son.
Deity is not compatible with being begotten, because He who begets is before than he who is begotten.

Jesus can see the Father. Nobody else can see the Father.

1. "See the Father" is a metaphor. Otherwise "seeing" would require physical eyes, and a physical object that emits or reflects light. This is the same metaphor used by Jesus when He said: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8) We will not literally see God, since He is invisible. We will enjoy his presence. That's the meaning of "seeing God".
2. The verse in question (John 6:46) says "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God" and not "except He who is God". By saying "of God", Jesus affirms once again what He always declared in all possible ways: that He is a Messenger of God, who acts and speaks on behalf of God.

Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. Nobody else poured out the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was given to people by the laying of hands of the apostles.

Jesus sits on the Father's Throne. Nobody else sits on the Father's Throne with the Father and the Son.

• Sitting on Christ's throne will not make us Christ
• Sitting on Father's throne did not make Christ God, as Jesus kept saying in the Book of Revelation that He has his God.
• Christ is much more often seen or described sitting at the right of the throne of God.
• The verse in question means that Christ promises to make us kings, just as The Father made him king. "Throne" means "kingdom".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I have to agree

They do not honor the son as they honor the Father therefore they do not honor the Father

This is not correct.

1. First. Unitarians honor the Son as they honor the Father, because THERE IS NO WAY in which we can honor Jesus without honoring the Father, and THERE IS NO WAY in which we can honor Father without honoring Jesus.
2. Second. The verse refers to the honor people paid to an Ambassador of God, as evidence that they honored He who sent the Ambassador. Remember that Jesus was presenting his credentials as the One Sent by God, not as God.
3. Third. We should honor every each brother and sister as we honor Jesus. That doesn't mean that our brothers and sisters are Jesus.

So, the way you are judging your Unitarian brothers is unsupported by Bible and logics.

 

[TomL]

This is not correct.

1. First. Unitarians honor the Son as they honor the Father, because THERE IS NO WAY in which we can honor Jesus without honoring the Father, and THERE IS NO WAY in which we can honor Father without honoring Jesus.
2. Second. The verse refers to the honor people paid to an Ambassador of God, as evidence that they honored He who sent the Ambassador. Remember that Jesus was presenting his credentials as the One Sent by God, not as God.
3. Third. We should honor every each brother and sister as we honor Jesus. That doesn't mean that our brothers and sisters are Jesus.

So, the way you are judging your Unitarian brothers is unsupported by Bible and logics.

Do you pray to and worship the Son

The unitarians do not so i judged correctly

John 5:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

BTW the Unitarians are not my brother not in a religious sense anyway

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Without b;ood there is no sacrifice. He was made the sacrificial lamb for us. If you don't trust in the shed blood of Jesus what do you trust in.

My brother:

Trusting in the efficacy of Jesus sacrifice does not depend on believing He was God.
The proposition you have posted is a non-sequitur fallacy.

If you disagree with me, I beg you to present your arguments.

 

[TomL]

My brother:

Trusting in the efficacy of Jesus sacrifice does not depend on believing He was God.
The proposition you have posted is a non-sequitur fallacy.

If you disagree with me, I beg you to present your arguments.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[TomL]

Without b;ood there is no sacrifice. He was made the sacrificial lamb for us. If you don't trust in the shed blood of Jesus what do you trust in.

Me? I trust in his shed blood and his life

 

[synergy]

Deity is not compatible with being born.
The Father, the Only and True God, was not begotten. On the contrary: It is said from The Father that He begot The Son.
Deity is not compatible with being begotten, because He who begets is before than he who is begotten.

Who is Christ's Father? A correct answer to that will reveal Christ's Nature.

1. "See the Father" is a metaphor. Otherwise "seeing" would require physical eyes, and a physical object that emits or reflects light. This is the same metaphor used by Jesus when He said: "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8) We will not literally see God, since He is invisible. We will enjoy his presence. That's the meaning of "seeing God".
2. The verse in question (John 6:46) says "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God" and not "except He who is God". By saying "of God", Jesus affirms once again what He always declared in all possible ways: that He is a Messenger of God, who acts and speaks on behalf of God.

Just as easily as you dismissing Jesus' relationship/perception of the Father as just a metaphor, I can just as easily dismiss my perception of you as just a metaphor. That sword cuts both ways. Do you really want to go with that excuse.

The Holy Spirit was given to people by the laying of hands of the apostles.

Only after Jesus poured out the spirit as only God can. Let's see you try to do that.

• Sitting on Christ's throne will not make us Christ

Huh? Who claims that?

• Sitting on Father's throne did not make Christ God, as Jesus kept saying in the Book of Revelation that He has his God.
• Christ is much more often seen or described sitting at the right of the throne of God.
• The verse in question means that Christ promises to make us kings, just as The Father made him king. "Throne" means "kingdom".

Follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

 

[TomL]

Deity is not compatible with being born.
The Father, the Only and True God, was not begotten. On the contrary: It is said from The Father that He begot The Son.
Deity is not compatible with being begotten, because He who begets is before than he who is begotten.

As he made all that was made he himself is without a beginning. He always was

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you pray to and worship the Son

Praying to the Son is not a requirement, as there are millions of Christians who believe in Jesus' deity and never pray to the Son, but to the Father.
So, if we have ruled out praying, tell me a single act in your daily life that you do as Trinitarian and that you would not do as Unitarian.

If you are UNABLE to put forward a single example, then "worship the Son" is empty of meaning, and you have judged the Unitarians wrongly

BTW the Unitarians are not my brother not in a religious sense anyway

Believing that you and Unitarians are created by the same God means to be brothers in a religious sense.
An atheist would agree with you. Not a believer.
So, your statement "The Unitarians are not my brothers... not in a religious sense" violates your own understanding of religion. Besides, it deprives you from a great source of joy and spiritual growth. So I suggest you stop thinking like that, and act according to the spirit of Jesus who is in you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Who is Christ's Father? A correct answer to that will reveal Christ's Nature.

Literally or metaphorically?

I ask the question because neither you nor me believe that Jesus is literally a son of God, or God literally the father of Jesus.
In my case, because God does not reproduce, has sex, wife or husband.
In your case, because of an additional detail: if God had begotten a son, the son would have started existing AFTER the Father, and you believe Christ is eternal.

So, I suppose that we both will take "Son" and "Father" as powerful metaphors.

This is the context in which God revealed Muhammad the concept that "God has no sons".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As he made all that was made he himself is without a beginning. He always was

If you think that Jesus is literally the begotten son of God, then you believe He had a beginning.

I don't know if you really understand what you say you believe.
In my case, I don't. I just spell out words, half-parrot, half-man.
What I fight is the arrogance to believe that we understand what we don't and will probably never understand. An arrogance that makes us point fingers to others and consider them heretics.

 

[Peterlag]

Tell then why are you unable to address Phil 2:5ff and rebut the fact it shows a personal pre-existent Christ

or the fact that the bible shows nothing was made without Christ so it is not possible he was a created creature

Great example is...

Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

There's nothing in the verse that says Jesus is God. You are not asking us to disprove a trinity verse. You are asking us to explain what's in your mind. The verse is telling the Christian to walk in the spirit by putting on the mind of Christ. I have no idea what else could be said about this verse. It does not mention God or a trinity.

 

[synergy]

Literally or metaphorically?

Neither. Jesus is the Father's Son spiritually.

Now that we're getting closer to the correct answer, let me ask the question again, who is Jesus' Spiritual Father?

I ask the question because neither you nor me believe that Jesus is literally a son of God, or God literally the father of Jesus.
In my case, because God does not reproduce, has sex, wife or husband.
In your case, because of an additional detail: if God had begotten a son, the son would have started existing AFTER the Father, and you believe Christ is eternal.

So, I suppose that we both will take "Son" and "Father" as powerful metaphors.

This is the context in which God revealed Muhammad the concept that "God has no sons".

Of course the anti-Christ Muhammad would say that. I would not expect any less vomit from him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

FIRST
You don't seem to understand what idolatry is, and why God doesn't want to share his glory with anyone else.
Idolatry is bad because it takes us away from God. It interferes with our relationship with God.
Jesus is not an idol. An idol takes us away from God. Jesus takes us to God.

SECOND
You are debating about an act that has no relevance whatsoever in your own life. Otherwise, you would have been able to bring to this Forum one example, at least one single example, of a distinctive action in your real life, one that Unitarians would not perform, that proves that you worship Jesus.

So, my brother, let me tell you with all due respect, that your claim for idolatry in Unitarism is empty in content, and empty in relevance.
If you disagree, please present your arguments. Otherwise, I would appreciate you apologize to our Unitarian friends.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Neither. Jesus is the Father's Son spiritually.

It will be helpful if you tell us the difference between "metaphorically" and "spiritually", since you, me and our readers know nothing about spiritual reproduction, spiritual sex cells, spiritual pregnancy, spiritual labor, or the like.

If you are unable to explain the difference between being Son "spiritually" and "metaphorically", then your argument is just a wordplay.

Of course the anti-Christ Muhammad would say that. I would not expect any less vomit from him.

Well, you have not still challenged the divine wisdom of the Holy Quran in declaring that "God has no son".
Unless you can explain how God begot a son "spiritually" and not metaphorically, your words against a Prophet of God are just sheer ignorance and vulgarity.

 

[synergy]

FIRST
You don't seem to understand what idolatry is,

Idolatry is the worshipping of that which is not God. Since unitarians believe that Jesus is not God then you are saying that all worship given to Jesus on the Father's Throne is idolatry.

and why God doesn't want to share his glory with anyone else.
Idolatry is bad because it takes us away from God. It interferes with our relationship with God.
Jesus is not an idol. An idol takes us away from God. Jesus takes us to God.

I gave you the proof that unitarianism is idolatry and you offered no counterargument, nor could you.

SECOND
You are debating about an act that has no relevance whatsoever in your own life. Otherwise, you would have been able to bring to this Forum one example, at least one single example, of a distinctive action in your real life, one that Unitarians would not perform, that proves that you worship Jesus.

Jesus is in all Believer's hearts. That means he is all knowing and all present, proving he is God.

So, my brother, let me tell you with all due respect, that your claim for idolatry in Unitarism is empty in content, and empty in relevance.
If you disagree, please present your arguments. Otherwise, I would appreciate you apologize to our Unitarian friends.

I'm just a Messenger. Only in Sparta do they kill the Messenger.

 

[civic]

It has been recorded that Jesus denied that he is God in the verses below from the KJV:

Matthew 19​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

​

Mark 10​

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

​

Luke 18​

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.​

Based on the above Scripture, we can find the following information:

Jesus rhetorically questions why he is being called "good" and says that only God is good. This means that Jesus is distinguishing himself from God and that absolute goodness belongs exclusively to God. In saying this, Jesus denies that he possesses the absolute goodness that God has.

This distinction that Jesus pointed out between himself and God is evident in his rhetorical question about why he is being called good. If Jesus were God, then it would not be consistent for him to deny being called good and thus deny having this divine attribute of God.

Since Jesus denied having the absolute goodness of God, Jesus strongly inferred that he is just a teacher and a prophet. In John 8:28, Jesus stated, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." Therefore, Jesus was himself taught by his God and Father. Needing to be taught by God means that Jesus is not omniscient and didn't inherently know the things he himself was teaching until he was taught.

Therefore, Jesus denied being God.

You would have much better luck trying to find a verse where Jesus denied being a man rather than one denying He is God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Only after Jesus poured out the spirit as only God can. Let's see you try to do that.

Is that true? Do you know how God pours out the Spirit, versus how Jesus or the apostles do it?
I think you don't know what you are talking about.
(Well, that makes two of us, to be honest...)

If need a comparison, this is one.
God poured the Spirit on Jesus. However, Jesus never poured the spirit on God.
The spirit which God poured on Jesus guided Jesus to achieve things that the apostles upon which Jesus poured the spirit would not achieve.
So, reflect again on your statement.