Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

Because men die

And his life was a sacrifice on behalf of mankind

Wow Jesus died like everyone else will. Though he was the first to be resurrected to eternal life, he certainly won't be the last.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You would have much better luck trying to find a verse where Jesus denied being a man rather than one denying He is God.

We don't need a verse in which Jesus explicitly denies being God, as we don't need a verse in which Enoch or Peter explicitly deny being God.
What we need is verses that indicate who is God. If we know who is God, then by definition, no other person is God.

Jesus tells us explicitly that His Father is God, his God, and The Only and True God.

 

[Runningman]

You would have much better luck trying to find a verse where Jesus denied being a man rather than one denying He is God.

He did deny being God. Contrary to the accusation of claiming to be such, he said he is a man or that there is none good except God alone. Given then and no statements about being God, the pendulum swings in the favor of Jesus not being God.

 

[Runningman]

Without b;ood there is no sacrifice. He was made the sacrificial lamb for us. If you don't trust in the shed blood of Jesus what do you trust in.

Exactly... a man purchased for God those from every nation. God, an invisible Spirit, doesn't have blood.

Want proof that the Lamb is a resurrected human being in heaven? Here:

Revelation 5
9And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

 

[Runningman]

Do you pray to and worship the Son

The unitarians do not so i judged correctly

John 5:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

BTW the Unitarians are not my brother not in a religious sense anyway

This passage is in regards to honoring the judgements of Jesus. There is no such inference of praying to Jesus or worshipping Jesus here so what you are suggesting is quite a stretch. You are making an argument that anyone is free to dismiss because it doesn't actually say what you misuse it for.

 

[synergy]

It will be helpful if you tell us the difference between "metaphorically" and "spiritually", since you, me and our readers know nothing about spiritual reproduction, spiritual sex cells, spiritual pregnancy, spiritual labor, or the like.

If you are unable to explain the difference between being Son "spiritually" and "metaphorically", then your argument is just a wordplay.

God is Spirit and to know God you must know him spiritually. If the Bahai have no spiritual understanding then it's time you bade them farewell.

Well, you have not still challenged the divine wisdom of the Holy Quran in declaring that "God has no son".

Holy Quran???? Seriously???? What's so holy about the Quran promoting the chopping off of heads???

Unless you can explain how God begot a son "spiritually" and not metaphorically, your words against a Prophet of God are just sheer ignorance and vulgarity.

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? Was Jesus always the Son of God, or did He become the Son of God at the incarnation?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Runningman]

John 8:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

What else does John 8 say? The Father taught Jesus. Wow, Jesus needed to learn things just like a regular person does so that isn't omniscience Tom. If you don't believe he is the messiah you will indeed die in your sins. The messiah isn't God in Scripture.

John 8​

28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.​

​

Can anyone teach God? No. But Jesus can be taught.

​

Job 21​

22Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since He judges those on high?​

 

[Runningman]

You ignored this

John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

God wants you to honor the son as you honor him

You do not

Therefore you do not honor the father

Only in regards to judgement as Jesus said.

John 5
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

[Runningman]

Um you have to actually provide evidence to debunk something. Bald denials and ignoring context will not do it.

I have already provided evidence. Citing scripture, scholarly material, experts, etc.

 

[Runningman]

I referenced how God's children know God. It is only through God. We know God by what He says.

If Jesus got all His teachings from the Father, then Jesus is God.

Getting a teaching from God doesn't make someone God, but rather it makes them a prophet. God is a person, not a status that someone can attain.. but you left the theological door wide open. Under your proposal, Jesus wasn't always God since he didn't always have God's teachings and anyone else who has God's teachings would be God. Don't take it too far.

 

[synergy]

Is that true? Do you know how God pours out the Spirit, versus how Jesus or the apostles do it?
I think you don't know what you are talking about.
(Well, that makes two of us, to be honest...)

Acts 2:33
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

If need a comparison, this is one.
God poured the Spirit on Jesus. However, Jesus never poured the spirit on God.
The spirit which God poured on Jesus guided Jesus to achieve things that the apostles upon which Jesus poured the spirit would not achieve.
So, reflect again on your statement.

The fact remains that Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit as only God can.

Let us summarize the facts that Jesus is God:

1. Jesus was born of a Virgin. Nobody else was born of a Virgin.

2. Jesus can see the Father. Nobody else can see the Father.

3. Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. Nobody else poured out the Holy Spirit.

4. Jesus sits on the Father's Throne. Nobody else sits on the Father's Throne with the Father and the Son.

 

[Runningman]

Let's see... Jesus was born of a Virgin. Nobody else was born of a Virgin.

Jesus does have some exclusives.

Jesus can see the Father. Nobody else can see the Father.

This is not a Jesus exclusive.

John 14
7If you really know me, you will know b my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. Nobody else poured out the Holy Spirit.

Which verse says that?

Jesus sits on the Father's Throne. Nobody else sits on the Father's Throne with the Father and the Son.

Etc.....

Thank you for admitting that the Father's throne isn't Jesus' throne even if Jesus sat on it. Nor will he always be there according to Scripture.

1 Corinthians 15
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Question, why isn't God "all in all" right now according to Paul?

 

[synergy]

Jesus does have some exclusives.

So who do you think is Jesus' Father since he has no human father?

This is not a Jesus exclusive.

John 14
7If you really know me, you will know b my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Only exclusively through Jesus can one see the Father. That is Jesus exclusive.

Which verse says that?

Acts 2:33
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Only God has the power to pour out the Holy Spirit. Jesus did that exclusively.

Thank you for admitting that the Father's throne isn't Jesus' throne even if Jesus sat on it. Nor will he always be there according to Scripture.

Finally, you admit to 2 Thrones. Now follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Question, why isn't God "all in all" right now according to Paul?

Excellent Trinitarian verse. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Let us summarize the facts that prove Jesus is God:

1. Jesus was born of a Virgin. Nobody else was born of a Virgin.
2. Jesus can see the Father. Nobody else can see the Father except exclusively through Jesus.
3. Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit. Nobody else poured out the Holy Spirit.
4. Jesus sits on the Father's Throne. Nobody else sits on the Father's Throne with the Father and the Son.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Acts 2:33
Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

The fact remains that Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit as only God can.

The fact remains that your statement is unsustained, because God poured the Spirit on Christ and Christ could have never poured on God.
Furthermore, the verse you are quoting, AGAIN, shows Christ receiving something from the Father… And AGAIN, it presents Jesus as a Person who is not God, since God cannot sit to the right hand of Himself.

Let us summarize the facts that Jesus is God:

None of them are facts that indicate that Jesus is God.
Each of them has been refuted in post 1783.
Repeating a false argument does not make it true, and weakens the position of he who repeats them. In this case, yours.

By the way, you have not not able to

1. Tell the difference between a “spiritual” and a “metaphoric” God/Son
2. Bring a single example of a worshipping act that you do and a Unitarian wouldn’t do, other than saying you worship Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God is a person, not a status that someone can attain.. but you

Powerful statement. Not from your intellect, but from God who has revealed to you.
Thanks for sharing with us this truth.

 

[synergy]

The fact remains that your statement is unsustained, because God poured the Spirit on Christ and Christ could have never poured on God.

Huh? Who said Christ poured the Holy Spirit on the Father? Not me. The verse says that Christ poured it out to the world. Stop with the strawmen.

Furthermore, the verse you are quoting, AGAIN, shows Christ receiving something from the Father… And AGAIN, it presents Jesus as a Person who is not God, since God cannot sit to the right hand of Himself.

More strawmen. Jesus can sit on the right hand of the Father, not himself. Where do you get such crazy ideas?
Now, concerning the Father's Throne, follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

None of them are facts that indicate that Jesus is God.
Each of them has been refuted in post 1783.
Repeating a false argument does not make it true, and weakens the position of he who repeats them. In this case, yours.

I responded how each and every one of your points fail miserably in Posts 1789, 1795, 1798, 1806, and even now.

By the way, you have not not able to

1. Tell the difference between a “spiritual” and a “metaphoric” God/Son

The Link in Post #1806 showed you how Jesus is The Son of God Spiritually. You said nothing to the contrary about it, nor can you.
As for the term "metaphorical", you're the one who brought it up. That's your job to promote it. I'm not going to do your work for you.

1. Bring a single example of a worshipping act that you do and a Unitarian wouldn’t do, other than saying you worship Christ.

I already did in Post #1798. You said nothing to the contrary about it either.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God is Spirit and to know God you must know him spiritually.

God is spirit: He does not eat, sweat, breath, sleep or reproduce. He does not beget sons.
So, If the Bible says that Christ is his begotten son, it must be in a metaphorical sense.
You should be clearly interested in recognizing this, since he who is begotten cannot be eternal.

CONCLUSION : Your attempt to derive the nature of Jesus based on the title “Son of God” has been refuted.

Fortunately, to refute or be refuted is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you fully embrace @Runningman, @Petelag and @Studyman as your brothers in Christ.

Holy Quran???? Seriously????

Yes, seriously.
It promotes a behavior far more compassionate than the one we both exhibit in this Forum, chopping off heads included.

 

[synergy]

God is spirit: He does not eat, sweat, breath, sleep or reproduce. He does not beget sons.
So, If the Bible says that Christ is his begotten son, it must be in a metaphorical sense.

False dichotomy. There is the spiritual dimension that you continue to skip over.

You should be clearly interested in recognizing this, since he who is begotten cannot be eternal.

Again, here is a good explanation that I sent you earlier. Since you haven't offered any counterargument to it, I take it you agree with it.

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

What is the doctrine of eternal Sonship and is it biblical? Was Jesus always the Son of God, or did He become the Son of God at the incarnation?

www.gotquestions.org

CONCLUSION : Your attempt to derive the nature of Jesus based on the title “Son of God” has been refuted.

Fortunately, to refute or be refuted is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you fully embrace @Runningman, @Petelag and @Studyman as your brothers in Christ.

Which Christ, pray tell, are you talking about? The Unitarian Christ or the Trinitarian Christ? Be specific.

Yes, seriously.
It promotes a behavior far more compassionate than the one we both exhibit in this Forum, chopping off heads included.

I will never role out the Red Carpet to the Anti-Christ writings of the Quran. I'd rather get my head chopped off by those Neanderthal minded pagans.

 

[mikesw]

God is spirit: He does not eat, sweat, breath, sleep or reproduce. He does not beget sons.
So, If the Bible says that Christ is his begotten son, it must be in a metaphorical sense.
You should be clearly interested in recognizing this, since he who is begotten cannot be eternal.

Anyhow it is really narrow sighted to determine what God can and cannot do. Okay maybe you can list a few things but you can also get it wrong. We also know that the Pagan religions totally messed up the concept of God.
We know God created everything. We essentially have knowledge limited by what is revealed in the OT and NT as our foundation.

CONCLUSION : Your attempt to derive the nature of Jesus based on the title “Son of God” has been refuted.

Fortunately, to refute or be refuted is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you fully embrace @Runningman, @Petelag and @Studyman as your brothers in Christ.


Yes, seriously.
It promotes a behavior far more compassionate than the one we both exhibit in this Forum, chopping off heads included.

Indeed Christians have been beheaded for following Christ and preaching the gospel of him. It is nice was can be here to testify of his divine nature in the Godhead without getting our heads lobbed off. It is worth defending.
I could have wished you had not suffered lack of compassion as a child but this seems to have become your filter for accepting or rejecting religious views.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Huh? Who said Christ poured the Holy Spirit on the Father? Not me. The verse says that Christ poured it out to the world. Stop with the strawmen.

I didn’t say you said it. No strawman.
If you still don’t understand why I am bringing this as a counterargument, I invite you to think and then, if in doubt, ask.

More strawmen. Jesus can sit on the right hand of the Father, not himself. Where do you get such crazy ideas?

My crazy idea comes from the fact that The text says “at the right of God” and not “at the right of the Father”.
God cannot sit on the right hand of Himself.
So, Jesus is one Person, and God is another Person.

Once again, your mind betrayed your words. Your mind read “The Father” when the text said “God”.
This happens because, as the rest of us, you can only visualize The Father as God.
You are not a Trinitarian, synergy. You can’t be. Your God is and has always been One Person: The Father.

Now, concerning the Father's Throne, follow the steps below to see how Unitarianism is idolatry:

1. Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship which means they must be God.
2. Rev 3:21 has Jesus sitting on the Father's Throne.
3. If Jesus is not God then those who are giving worship to the Throne, where Jesus sits, are then guilty of idolizing Jesus.

• You don’t know what “worshiping Jesus” means.
• Your definition of an idol is incorrect. Jesus cannot be an idol, neither for Trinitarians nor for Unitarians. An idol takes us away from God. Jesus takes us to God.
• Your definition of idolatry is primitive and irrelevant to the choices we make in our daily life.
• Finally, Your three-step argument is incorrect: Praising Jesus and bowing to Jesus is not idolatry, because it is done not for the sake of Jesus, but for the glory of the Father, who is the Only and True God.

You have the right to repeat your arguments, as I to refute them, as many times as needed.