Jesus denied being God
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Runningman
Well-known member
In John 5:37, the form of God refers to the outward appearance of God, not the literal physical shape. We already know from a multitude of Scripture that God is invisible. Just how Jesus was in the form of God in Philippians 2:6, it's referring to the outward display of holiness, righteousness, etc.
YHWH searched the hearts and reigns in the Old Testament and does in the New Testament as well.
Where did Jesus state "i am he" and in what context?
I already answered the question about Revelation 2:23 in post #1655. I also already addressed your question about John 5:37 in post #1645.
Your claims are directly refuted by the Scriptural context of the letters to the churches. Begin with Revelation 1 where Jesus get the Revelations from.
Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Everything that was written to the 7 churches was from God and given to them as testimony and witness from what Jesus heard from God. John wrote it down and gave it to them. Jesus repeated what God told him to say.
So are you going to actually answer the replies I have already been giving you?
Runningman
Well-known member
That's what happened to you.
Runningman
Well-known member
You once again take your man god theology way too far.
Here's what verse we are on:
Revelation 3
21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
To the one who overcomes, do you know who that refers to? That's to the Christians, dear sinergy, who will sit on the throne with Jesus. Why this is incompatible with your theology is that the throne of Jesus isn't the throne of God. If it was, then Christians (the ones who overcome) would be sitting on the throne of God. This is why Jesus doesn't say the Father's throne is his throne. By extension, sitting on the throne of Jesus does not make someone God. Therefore Jesus is not God. That clearly explains how Christians can sit on the throne of Jesus without actually being God. It refers to unity, the sharing of authority, etc because the Christians will reign with Jesus. Since they reign with Jesus they will have authority as well.
2 Timothy 2:12 - "If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us."
Revelation 5:10 - "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
Revelation 20:6 - "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."
Romans 5:17 - "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"
Ephesians 2:6 - "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus."
Runningman
Well-known member
This is laughable. Try any verse if you think Christianity cannot answer what the Bible says.
You continue to have difficulty reading what people write. It's Unitarianism, not Christianity, that cannot answer what the Bible writes. Your lack of reading comprehension would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
Runningman
Well-known member
Unitarians are the real Christians. So Unitarian and Christian are interchangeable terms.
Too bad the Apostles never received your memo. You can petition to amend the Bibles but you're going to be laughed out of any committee you propose this to.
BTW, your interpretation of Rev 3:21 has been exposed as promoting idolatry 3 times over in Post 1658. Stop running away from those facts.
Runningman
Well-known member
Lol they didn't say Trinitarian or Unitarian, but atleast they described what the Unitarian view of God and Jesus is.
I'm not promoting idolatry. I am promoting what Trinitarianism results in Revelation 3:21 teaching.
The premise in Trinitarianism is that sitting on the Father's throne makes someone God, therefore Jesus is God. Therefore sitting on the throne of Jesus is equal to sitting on the throne of God. Since those who overcome sit on the throne of Jesus, then the natural conclusion is Christians are God or else the premise is false. The whole point of this exercise was to show you your idolatry, sir.
If you're promoting Trinitarianism then you are perfectly in sync with the Bible. That's great to hear!!!
Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship so that means they are God. You stumble horribly here because the Unitarian Jesus is here being idolized with all the worship streaming into the Father's Throne.
Huh? There's a reason why there are two Thrones. You are conflating the 2 Thrones and making a mess of things
Your premise of conflation was exposed as false There are 2 Thrones. Can you count? 1 2. Two Thrones.
You just exposed your idolatry and your inability to count to 2 when it comes to understanding how many Thrones are being discussed in Rev 3:21
Peterlag
Well-known member
They post all kinds of trinity scholars. They quote their Bibles and teachings and writings. When I do it then I'm not thinking for myself. Yeah it is a double standard.They have a double standard to be nice about it. Some call it hypocrisy.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The Old Testament prophecies about the coming Messiah foretold that he would be a human being who would be the offspring of Eve (Genesis 3:15); a descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18); a descendant of Judah (Genesis 49:10; a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15); a son of David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 11:1); a king ruling under Yahweh (Psalm 110:1); and a ruler from among the people of Israel (Jeremiah30:21). That explains why the people were all expecting a human Messiah. Psalm 110:1 merits special attention because it's especially clear but has been misunderstood and misrepresented by most English versions that read “The LORD says to my Lord….” The word “LORD” is Yahweh, but many Trinitarian commentators argue that “my Lord” in this verse is the Hebrew word "adonai" that is another name for God, and that would provide proof of the divinity of the Messiah. But the Hebrew text does not use "adonai" but rather "adoni" which is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God.
The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
The Old Testament refers to the Messiah as “one like a son of man” and the phrase “son of man” was a Semitic idiom for a human being and it's used that way throughout the Old Testament. The phrase “son of man” also became a title of the Messiah when Daniel referred to him as “one like a son of man” (Daniel 7:13) and that explains why Jesus called himself “the son of man” many times. The use of the “son of man” in reference to the Messiah is one more piece of evidence that Jesus was fully human and one more reason that people were expecting the Messiah to be human. The New Testament teaches Jesus was a man and Jesus himself said he was “a man who has told you the truth” John 8:40. Jesus was not being disingenuous and hiding his “divine nature” but rather was making a factual statement that reinforced what the Jews were expecting of the Messiah—that he would be a fully human man.
The apostles also taught Jesus was a man and we see this when the Apostle Peter spoke in his sermon to the crowds gathered on the Day of Pentecost making a very clear declaration that Jesus was a man approved of God: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you…” (Acts 2:22). Here Peter clearly taught that Jesus was a man and that God did miracles “by him.” Paul also taught Jesus was a man and we can see that when he was in Athens teaching a crowd of unsaved Gentiles about Jesus Christ and said that God would judge the world “by the man whom He has appointed” (Acts 17:31). Paul never said or implied that Jesus was anything but a “man.”
There is a lot of evidence in this forum that is solely your problem
What replies?
Jesus said no one has seen the Father
Scripture states men saw God. It is talking about a physical manifestation (see the verses where men saw God)
It does not say the saw holiness and righteousness
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
this speaks of physical realities
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
yet it is stated men saw God
Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Seen God face to face
physical claim
Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Who did they see if they had not seen the father
Still no answer
John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.
They saw the pre-incarnate Christ
No answer to this argument
In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys
(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.
Christ says I am he who searches the heart and the kidneys (reins)
Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Why ask about the context read it
Why does Jesus state "I am he"?
Unitarianism still has no answer
Runningman
Well-known member
So Trinitarianism posits that those who sit on the seat of Jesus are God? lol Are you paying close attention to what you're suggesting?If you're promoting Trinitarianism then you are perfectly in sync with the Bible. That's great to hear!!!
Those who sit on the Father's Throne are receiving worship so that means they are God. You stumble horribly here because the Unitarian Jesus is here being idolized with all the worship streaming into the Father's Throne.
Huh? There's a reason why there are two Thrones. You are conflating the 2 Thrones and making a mess of things
Your premise of conflation was exposed as false There are 2 Thrones. Can you count? 1 2. Two Thrones.
You just exposed your idolatry and your inability to count to 2 when it comes to understanding how many Thrones are being discussed in Rev 3:21
I think you are not following my argument here. I am not saying I believe what Trinitarianism does. No way. I am pointing out the error of Trinitarianism, which is idolatry, because Trinitarianism is based on a completely false premise. Bottom line, if those who overcome aren't God then no one is God except the Father. Hey, whaddya know, that aligns perfectly with Scripture and the Unitarian perspective on God.
John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 John 5:20... all directly and explicitly say what we believe about who God is exactly.
Runningman
Well-known member
Not sure what you're referring to unless it's group think; a psychological phenomenon that occurs when a group of people prioritize conformity over critical thinking, leading to irrational decisions.
Runningman
Well-known member
Hilarious. So I actually went through all of your questions, read them, went through the Bible, and gave you scriptural answers. Your response is "What replies?" You, sir, are stalling. If you want to just copy and paste I know how to do that too.
In John 5:37, the form of God refers to the outward appearance of God, not the literal physical shape. We already know from a multitude of Scripture that God is invisible. Just how Jesus was in the form of God in Philippians 2:6, it's referring to the outward display of holiness, righteousness, etc.
YHWH searched the hearts and reigns in the Old Testament and does in the New Testament as well.
Where did Jesus state "i am he" and in what context?
I already answered the question about Revelation 2:23 in post #1655. I also already addressed your question about John 5:37 in post #1645.
Your claims are directly refuted by the Scriptural context of the letters to the churches. Begin with Revelation 1 where Jesus get the Revelations from.
Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Everything that was written to the 7 churches was from God and given to them as testimony and witness from what Jesus heard from God. John wrote it down and gave it to them. Jesus repeated what God told him to say.
So are you going to actually answer the replies I have already been giving you?
Runningman
Well-known member
As I said elsewhere, it's less about truth and more about appearances at some point with them; it's the nature of the beast. It must be this way. There is no other choice for them after their handful of talking points are exhausted and ours keep coming with something new, and fresh every day.
Trinitarianism can't answer the tough questions and address the Bible in a harmonious way. What they can do is sweep it all under the rug, falsely accuse others, and muddy the waters until it's difficult to even know who to trust anymore to the untrained eye. That's what their goal seems to be sometimes. It's disaster control... that's all it is. If they can't beat you on Scriptural ground then might as well smear you.
Sorry, I am not sure what you thought would happen, but I naively and innocently thought that truth would prevail and honesty would reign supreme in the end of a debate. No, dear Peterlag, it doesn't work this way because their hearts are evil even though they quote the Bible and say they're Christian. Forums are notoriously rocky soil because of some of these things. That's why I don't take any of it personally no matter what they say. I already know the game they're playing. I simply prefer to keep it at that and let none of the deception enter my heart.
God bless Peterlag.
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You have no answers
If you read and responded to what I stated why do you ask where does Jesus say I am he
Scripture states men saw God. It is talking about a physical manifestation (see the verses where men saw God)
It does not say the saw holiness and righteousness
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
this speaks of physical realities
Do you disagree?
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Only the one who is from the father saw God
Do you disagree
yet it is stated men saw God
Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Seen God face to face
physical claim
Do you disagree
Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Who did they see if they had not seen the father
Still no answer
John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.
They saw the pre-incarnate Christ
No answer to this argument
In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys
(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.
Christ says I am he who searches the heart and the kidneys (reins)
Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
hello
Do you seriously want the readers to believe you do not see where Jesus says i am he
Why does Jesus state "I am he"?
Do you doubt Jesus is speaking?
Revelation 2:18–22 (KJV 1900) — 18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
If not why does Jesus identify himself with the one in the Old Testament who searches the heart and the kidney?
Unitarianism and this running man still has no answer
Sorry the last thing you offer is critical thinking. You ignore context and exegesis and offer little more than bald denial
