Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

We can agree that the Father is God. Worship is directed to that Throne where both the Father and Jesus are sitting. That proves Jesus is God.

We can agree that Christians are not God. As for Jesus, he can sit wherever he wants. That fact does not diminish him as God.

Huh? You just violated a fundamental rules of logic. Who taught you to violate logic that way??? With that everything else comes crashing down.

And according to Scripture, Christians are right there sitting with Jesus who sat on his Father's throne. By extension, your theology allows Christians to sit on the throne of God. So I don't believe Christians will be God for sharing those thrones... therefore since Jesus is a human like Christians are... he isn't God either. I think you have a mental block on this because it leads to the deity of Jesus being debunked. There are dozens of examples like this all over the Bible in which Jesus has something in common with regular Christians.

 

[TomL]

Finding out I was wrong is why I ceased being a Trinitarian. If I found out I was wrong again then yes of course I would change. Would you?

Actually you lacked the ability to properly handle scripture and thus was led astray

 

[Peterlag]

How about reviewing a manuscript? Ever considered it or are you always going to blindly accept the work of others to make it your own?

Why do you say I blindly accept the works of others when I quote others. Are we supposed to not look at any other biblical writings? Only our own thinking. You talk foolish.

 

[TomL]

And according to Scripture, Christians are right there sitting with Jesus who sat on his Father's throne. By extension, your theology allows Christians to sit on the throne of God. So I don't believe Christians will be God for sharing those thrones... therefore since Jesus is a human like Christians are... he isn't God either. I think you have a mental block on this because it leads to the deity of Jesus being debunked. There are dozens of examples like this all over the Bible in which Jesus has something in common with regular Christians.

sorry you adopt a fallacy

Either he is God or he is man

Thus you simply beg the question and assume

He cannot be both man and God

 

[Runningman]

You ignored scripture

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

yet it stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.



Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.



Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he addresses nothing and just offers bald denial

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

Why does Jesus state "I am he"

Unitarianism has no answer

You're conflating figurative spiritual sight, which is the same as knowing something, which physical sight. You're also conflating a manifestation of God with seeing an invisible God. The writers in the New Testament very well know exactly there are examples of God appearing in one form or another in their Scripture. They would not turn and then contradict it by saying no one has seen God and that God is invisible. Once you learn the difference between literal and non-literal language you'll be on the right track.

 

[Peterlag]

I use many

None essentially differ regarding this text

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I looked at many and only a couple use the word Jesus. Most use the word Lord which means God in the Old Testament.

 

[TomL]

Why do you say I blindly accept the works of others when I quote others. Are we supposed to not look at any other biblical writings? Only our own thinking. You talk foolish.

He did not chastise you for looking at biblical writings but for accepting the words of others

 

[Runningman]

sorry but you are still ignoring the context

John 5:19–22 (ESV) — 19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

Now again I will ask

How do you honor God (the Father)?

It just refers to respecting the judgements of Jesus that the Father has delegated to Jesus. That's it. You take "honoring the Father" to the moon and stretch it to apply to worshipping, praying, etc to Jesus when it does not.

We are to glorify God in whatever we do.

 

[Runningman]

what part of

And am set down with my Father in his throne.

Were you not capable of understanding?

What part of "my throne" and "His throne" are not the same thrones do you not understand?

Let's get back to reality for a second. Tom's chair and Runningman's chair. Not sure what's difficult about this. Maybe you're getting frustrated because you can't Bible lawyer your way out of God's throne not being Jesus' throne.

 

[Peterlag]

He did not chastise you for looking at biblical writings but for accepting the words of others

He attacks me personally in an evil way. The devils do the same. They attack, blame and accuse. Just like he does.

 

[Runningman]

Um you fail to honor the Father because you fail to honor the son as the Father would have

John 5:23–24 (UASV) — 23 in order that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.


So you have not overcome

It just refers to respecting the judgements of Jesus that the Father has delegated to Jesus. That's it. You take "honoring the Father" to the moon and stretch it to apply to worshipping, praying, etc to Jesus when it does not.

John 5
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

[Runningman]

Why do you say I blindly accept the works of others when I quote others. Are we supposed to not look at any other biblical writings? Only our own thinking. You talk foolish.

They have a double standard to be nice about it. Some call it hypocrisy.

 

[TomL]

You're conflating figurative spiritual sight, which is the same as knowing something, which physical sight. You're also conflating a manifestation of God with seeing an invisible God. The writers in the New Testament very well know exactly there are examples of God appearing in one form or another in their Scripture. They would not turn and then contradict it by saying no one has seen God and that God is invisible. Once you learn the difference between literal and non-literal language you'll be on the right track.

UM you totally ignored a number of facts and failed to address any scriptures

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

this speaks of physical realities

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

As does this

yet it stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

physical claim

Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

another

Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he still addresses nothing

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

no answer

Why does Jesus state "I am he"?

Unitarianism has no answer

 

[TomL]

It just refers to respecting the judgements of Jesus that the Father has delegated to Jesus. That's it. You take "honoring the Father" to the moon and stretch it to apply to worshipping, praying, etc to Jesus when it does not.

John 5
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

still ignoring the context

John 5:19–24 (UASV) — 19 So Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all the things he himself does. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, so also the Son makes alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment but has passed from death to life.

and once again

How do you directly honor God (the Father)?

 

[Runningman]

UM you totally ignored a number of facts and failed to address any scriptures

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

this speaks of physical realities

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

As does this

yet it stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

physical claim

Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

another

Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he still addresses nothing

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

no answer

Why does Jesus state "I am he"?

Unitarianism has no answer

I didn't read what your question was. You just pasting the same thing repeatedly has a way of making others blind to what you are even talking about. It's been 99% nonsense since I have talked to you on this forum. Unlikely to be any gems of truth in your writings and this one is not an exception. Forgive me for just skipping over your walls of text.

Since you bolded your question, I see it now. You should be more concise and direct about your points.

Your claims are directly refuted by the Scriptural context of the letters to the churches. Begin with Revelation 1 where Jesus get the Revelations from.

Revelation 1​

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.​

Everything that was written to the 7 churches was from God and given to them as testimony and witness from what Jesus heard from God. John wrote it down and gave it to them. Jesus repeated what God told him to say.

 

[TomL]

I didn't read what your question was. You just pasting the same thing repeatedly has a way of making others blind to what you are even talking about. It's been 99% nonsense since I have talked to you on this forum. Unlikely to be any gems of truth in your writings and this one is not an exception. Forgive me for just skipping over your walls of text.

Since you bolded your question, I see it now. You should be more concise and direct about your points.

Your claims are directly refuted by the Scriptural context of the letters to the churches. Begin with Revelation 1 where Jesus get the Revelations from.

Revelation 1​

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.​

Everything that was written to the 7 churches was from God and given to them as testimony and witness from what Jesus heard from God. John wrote it down and gave it to them. Jesus repeated what God told him to say.

So what is your excuse now

UM you totally ignored a number of facts and failed to address any scriptures

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

this speaks of physical realities - you do not address this

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

As does this which you also do not address

yet it stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

physical claim

Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

another

Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

Still no answer

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he still addresses nothing

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

no answer

Why does Jesus state "I am he"?

Unitarianism still has no answer

Runningman simply begs the question assuming if another is called God then Jesus cannot be God (deity)

 

[Runningman]

So what is your excuse now

UM you totally ignored a number of facts and failed to address any scriptures

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

this speaks of physical realities - you do not address this

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

As does this which you also do not address

yet it stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

physical claim

Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

another

Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

Still no answer

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he still addresses nothing

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

no answer

Why does Jesus state "I am he"?

Unitarianism still has no answer

Runningman simply begs the question assuming if another is called God then Jesus cannot be God (deity)

Readers note how Tom fails to clearly and succinctly ask a question. Even when his question is directly answered, he reacts with what can only be understood as Internet foot stomping. I have already answered these. What is your question you think has not been addressed with Scripture?

 

[synergy]

And according to Scripture, Christians are right there sitting with Jesus who sat on his Father's throne.

Where is "there"? The Fathers Throne? Are you saying that we are sitting on the Father's Throne? If so then we are receiving worship that Throne receives and that's idolatry for whoever offers worship to that Throne.

Also, tell us which Bible verse you're referring to. Don't be shy. Cough it up.

By extension, your theology allows Christians to sit on the throne of God.

Be specific, which throne? The Father's Throne? How did you manage to come up with that statement?

So I don't believe Christians will be God for sharing those thrones...

So you're saying that Christians can share the Fathers Throne and receive the worship that Throne receives? Of so, you're promoting idolatry for whoever worships Christians.

therefore since Jesus is a human like Christians are... he isn't God either.

Huh? You're promoting idolatry with your previous statement and doing the same thing here with Christ if, as you say, he's just human.

I think you have a mental block on this because it leads to the deity of Jesus being debunked. There are dozens of examples like this all over the Bible in which Jesus has something in common with regular Christians.

I pin pointed where your belief crosses straght into idolatry at least 3 times. You possess a mental block that refuses to let you see how you keep falling into idolatry time and time again.

 

[TomL]

Readers note how Tom fails to clearly and succinctly ask a question. Even when his question is directly answered, he reacts with what can only be understood as Internet foot stomping. I have already answered these. What is your question you think has not been addressed with Scripture?

Sorry the readers can see both that a question was asked and you have not addressed it

living up to your name you ran



John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

this speaks of physical realities - you do not address this

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

As does this which you also do not address

yet it is stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

physical claim

Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

another

Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

Still no answer

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

No answer to this argument

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he who searches the heart and the kidneys (reins)

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he still addresses nothing

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

no answer

Why does Jesus state "I am he"?

Unitarianism still has no answer

 

[synergy]

Sorry the readers can see both that a question was asked and you have not addressed it

living up to your name you ran



John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

this speaks of physical realities - you do not address this

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

As does this which you also do not address

yet it is stated men saw God



Genesis 32:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

physical claim

Judges 13:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

another

Exodus 24:9–11 (KJV 1900) — 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Who did they see if they had not seen the father

Still no answer

John 1:18 (UASV) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, that one has made him fully known.

They saw the pre-incarnate Christ

No answer to this argument

In the Old Testament, Jehovah stated he is the one who searches the heart and examines the kidneys

(NWT) Jer 17:10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.

Christ says I am he who searches the heart and the kidneys (reins)

Revelation 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Readers notice how he still addresses nothing

Who searches the hearts and the reins in the Old Testament

no answer

Why does Jesus state "I am he"?

Unitarianism still has no answer

Correct. Unitarianism has no answer for hundreds of verses that directly contradict their Judaizing beliefs. Theophany Manifestations in the OT totally expose how Unitarianism is a lie and all that Unitarians can do is to run away from them.