Jesus denied being God

[101G]

If he was the holy Spirit then he would be God.

see above.

101G

 

[Runningman]

see above.

101G

See above. Jesus isn't God then.

 

[Runningman]

Continued response to runningman

Thomas’s response forms the high point of confession in the Gospel. What it does is bring the Gospel full circle from the Prologue, where it is emphatically said that the “Word was God” (1:1) to this confession, “My Lord and my God.” In the process of writing this Gospel the evangelist has proclaimed that Jesus was active in creation (1:2), the Word who became incarnate/enfleshed (1:14), the sin-bearing Lamb of God (1:29, 36), the Messiah (1:41; 4:25–26), the Son of God (1:48), the King of Israel (1:48), the new Temple (2:19–21), a teacher sent from God (3:2), a new symbol of God’s power exhibited through Moses (3:14), the evidence of the love of God (3:16), the Savior of the World (4:42), equal with God (5:18), the authority in judgment (5:27), the agent of God (5:30), the fulfillment of Scripture (5:39), the expected prophet (6:14), the “I am” (6:35, etc.), the supplier of living water (7:38), the one who was from God (9:31–33), the Son of Man (9:35), the consecrated/Holy one (10:36), the lifted up one (4:14; 12:32–34), the glorified one (13:31), the preparer of his followers’ destiny (14:2), the nonabandoning one (14:18), the one in whom we must abide and who is the basis for the fruitfulness of his followers (15:5–7), the sender of the Paraclete (15:26), the bearer of truth (18:37), the crucified King (19:15), the risen Lord (20:20) and God (20:26). The list can be expanded greatly, but the point is that when this list is compared to the designations of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, the other presentations of Jesus pale in significance before these magnificent confessions about him in John. In the years of contemplating the significance of Jesus, the Johannine evangelist in the context of that early community has supplied for the church of all ages a truly masterful statement about Jesus—Jesus is indeed Lord and God

Gerald L. Borchert, John 12–21 (vol. 25B; The New American Commentary; Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2002), 314–315.

and another source you claim which does not support you

The faith of Thomas is full of significance. First, it is helpful to our own faith to hear so decisive and so full a confession coming from the lips of such a man. John himself felt it to be so decisive that after recording it he virtually closes the Gospel which he had undertaken to write in order to persuade men that Jesus is the Son of God. After this confession of Thomas he feels that no more can be said. He stops not for want of matter; "many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples" which are not written in this Gospel. These seemed sufficient. The man who is not moved by this will not be moved by any further proof. Proof is not what such a doubter needs. Whatever we think of the other Apostles, it is plain that Thomas at least was not credulous. If Peter’s generous ardour carried him to a confession unwarranted by the facts, if John saw in Jesus the reflection of his own contemplative and loving nature, what are we to say of the faith of Thomas? He had no determination to see only what he desired, no readiness to accept baseless evidence and irresponsible testimony. He knew the critical nature of the situation, the unique importance of the matter presented to his faith. With him there was no frivolous or thoughtless underrating of difficulties. He did not absolutely deny the possibility of Christ’s resurrection, but he went very near doing so, and showed that practically he considered it either impossible or unlikely in the extreme. But in the end he believes. And the ease with which he passes from doubt to faith proves his honesty and sound-heartedness. As soon as evidence which to him is convincing is produced, he proclaims his faith.
His confession, too, is fuller than that of the other disciples. The week of painful questioning had brought clearly before his mind the whole significance of the Resurrection, so that he does not hesitate to own Jesus as his God. When a man of profound spiritual feeling and of good understanding has doubts and hesitations from the very intensity and subtlety of his scrutiny of what appears to him of transcendent importance; when he sees difficulties unseen by men who are too little interested in the matter to recognise them even though they stare them in the face,--when such a man, with the care and anxiety that befit the subject, considers for himself the claims of Christ, and as the result yields himself to the Lord, he sees more in Christ than other men do, and is likely to be steadier in his allegiance than if he had slurred over apparent obstacles instead of removing them, and stifled objections in place of answering them. It was not the mere seeing of Christ risen which prompted the full confession of Thomas. But slowly during that week of suspense he had been taking in the full significance of the Resurrection, coming at the close of such a life as he knew the Lord had lived. The very idea that such a thing was believed by the rest forced his mind back upon the exceptional character of Jesus, His wonderful works, the intimations He had given of His connection with God. The sight of Him risen came as the keystone of the arch, which being wanting all had fallen to the ground, but being inserted clenched the whole, and could now bear any weight. The truths about His person which Thomas had begun to explain away return upon his mind with resistless force, and each in clear, certain verity. He saw now that his Lord had performed all His word, had proved Himself supreme over all that affected men. He saw Him after passing through unknown conflict with principalities and powers come to resume fellowship with sinful men, standing with all things under His feet, yet giving His hand to the weak disciple to make him partake in His triumph.
This was a rare and memorable hour for Thomas, one of those moments that mark a man’s spirit permanently. He is carried entirely out of himself, and sees nothing but his Lord. The whole energy of his spirit goes out to Him undoubtingly, unhesitatingly, unrestrained. Everything is before him in the person of Christ; nothing causes the least diversion or distraction. For once his spirit has found perfect peace. There is nothing in the unseen world that can dismay him, nothing in the future on which he can spend a thought; his soul rests in the Person before him. He does not draw back, questioning whether the Lord will now receive him; he fears no rebuke; he does not scrutinise his spiritual condition, nor ask whether his faith is sufficiently spiritual. He cannot either go back upon his past conduct, or analyse his present feelings, or spend one thought of any kind upon himself. The scrupulous, sceptical man is all devoutness and worship; the thousand objections are swept from his mind; and all by the mere presence of Christ He is rapt in this one object; mind and soul are filled with the regained Lord; he forgets himself; the passion of joy with which he regains in a transfigured form his lost Leader absorbs him quite: "he had lost a possible king of the Jews; he finds his Lord and his God." There can be no question here about himself, his prospects, his interests. He can but utter his surprise, his joy, and his worship in the cry, "My Lord and my God."

and yet another source you claimed does not support you

Instead of taking advantage of the offer, Thomas responds immediately and emphatically to the invitation to “be no longer faithless but faithful.” In reply he “answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ ” (v. 28). The disciples have routinely called Jesus “Lord” (see 13:13), and Mary Magdalene has spoken of him as “my Lord” even in death (v. 13), but this is the first time anyone (aside from the Gospel writer) has called him “God,” or “my God.” Finally the introduction of Jesus to the reader as “God” (1:1), or “God the One and Only” (1:18), is confirmed from within the narrative. He has not “made himself God” (10:33), or “equal to God” (5:18), as his opponents charged, yet he is God, and now at last his disciples know it. The confession is all the more striking because the message Jesus sent to the disciples through Mary Magdalene was “I am going up to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God” (v. 17). Even Jesus recognized the Father as “my God,” and he invited his disciples to do the same. Yet Thomas does not hesitate to address Jesus himself in exactly the same way. He realizes that at the end of the day, “Believe in God, and believe in me!” (14:1) amount to the same thing. Those commands were addressed to all the disciples, not just one, and Thomas’s confession too (like Peter’s in 6:69) is best understood as representing the conviction of all the disciples gathered behind locked doors on those two successive first days of the week.

J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John (The New International Commentary on the Old and New Testament; Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, UK: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010), 1018.

That you think i should be ashamed demonstrates just how far your delusion has gone

My how far you have fallen. Now it seems you don't even believe basic Greek grammar. You have gotten totally lost in the sauce dear Tom. So you completely reject the vocative case being used to address individuals despite thousands of years of Greek grammar rules? All because you want Thomas to have said "you are" when there is no justifiable way to prove that he did?

Reminder, I have two dozen Bibles on my side that disagree with you. Give up and salvage whatever credibility you can because you sacrificed a lot to argue against the vocative case being used to directly address people and your sacrifice was in vain. The vocative case is a real case and it's all over the Bible and cited in many Greek grammar books. I have quoted many things, you rejected them all, and obstinately pushing forward with your debunked talking points. Get your coffee, we're going to be here all day.

 

[101G]

See above. Jesus isn't God then.

is not the Lord God the GOD of the Holy Prophets? listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

the Lord God of the holy Prophets sent his angel? answer, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

the Lord Jesus is the GOD of the Holy Prophets..... 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." ......... 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

can it get any clearer that that?

101G

 

[civic]

Not sure which verse you're talking about, but, for example, when Jesus said "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" it was in the vocative. Yes, he was directly addressing God. It's so disappointing you all reject so much of the Bible. shaking my head.

yes I find it ubelievable how much of the Bible concerning the person and work of Christ you disregard.

 

[101G]

@Runningman.... do you deny that JESUS is the Lord GOD? yes or no. if yes, then you have two God. if no then the Lord Jesus is the ONLY "GOD.....

looking to hear from you.

101G.

 

[civic]

is not the Lord God the GOD of the Holy Prophets? listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

the Lord God of the holy Prophets sent his angel? answer, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

the Lord Jesus is the GOD of the Holy Prophets..... 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." ......... 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

can it get any clearer that that?

101G

@Runningman

BIBLE 101


men do not send angels- God does and Christ is God.

next fallacy

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Only if you do not understand scripture or trinitarianism or how the word God is used in scripture

Good morning, TomL

The word “God” is used in Scripture the same way we use it in our daily conversations.
For example:

Oh God, help me to find my child
God guided me to the place where I could serve better
I don't know your heart, but God knows.
God's willing, we'll arrive by mid morning.
God blessed me with a strong body.

In thousands and thousands of sentences like this, that we use everyday, we refer to God as a Person, not as an attribute or category.
This shouldn't come as a surprise, as religion is about a relationship between persons: between you and me, and between we and God.

 

[civic]

Matt 13:41
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Matt 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Matt 25:31-33
31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

2 Thess 1:7
when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

1 Tim 5:21
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

Heb 1:6
He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."


Rev 5:11-12
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."


The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

yes I find it ubelievable how much of the Bible concerning the person and work of Christ you disregard.

I find it wild that you believe a human is God.

 

[civic]

I find it wild that you believe a human is God.

I find it unreal how you deny the biblical narrative that God became man.

God was manifest in the flesh
The Word who was God became flesh

YHWH declared in the OT he would come and dwell with man and that they would pierce Him.

Zech 12:10- “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Bible 101

 

[Obadiah]

Three in One, The Blessed Trinity. Jesus described God as "the Father", he described himself as God's son, and one with God the Father, and described the Holy Spirit as proceeding from both.

The Bible clearly says that Jesus is fully God. For example, Paul writes of Jesus in Colossians 2:9, “In him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” In addition, when Jesus’ contemporaries called him “Lord,” they were employing a term that was used over six thousand times in the Greek translation of the Old Testament to refer to God or “the Lord.” Therefore, when the angels announced Jesus’ birth by saying, “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:11), they were saying that the Lord God himself was born.
When asked if he had seen Abraham, Jesus responded by saying, “Before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:57–58)
Wayne A. Grudem, Christian Beliefs: Twenty Basics Every Christian Should Know

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Runningman

BIBLE 101


men do not send angels- God does and Christ is God.

next fallacy

Angels are basically messengers.
Certainly, the influence of many cultures and religions has impacted our concept of angels over time... but an angel is basically a messenger.
Jesus could send an angel, the devil is said to have angels (Mt 25:41) ... Peter himself could send his angel. Let's look at this episode:

As you remember, as disciples were praying to God for Peter's liberation, Peter was freed by an angel and came to know the house where the disciples were. Let's read what happened (Acts 12:12-15)

...He came to the house of Mary, the mother of John, whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together praying. As Peter knocked at the door of the porch, a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer. When she recognized Peter’s voice, from joy she did not open the door, but ran in and announced that Peter was standing at the door.
They said to her, “You are insane.” But she insisted that it was really so. So they said, “It is his angel.”

What evidence had Rhoda that the person knocking at the door was Peter?
His voice... in all likelihood saying "I am Peter, please open the door!"

Why the disciples thought that this was the angel of Peter?
Well, probably because a messenger speaks on behalf of the person who has sent him. Isn't that so?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I find it unreal how you deny the biblical narrative that God became man.

Well, for many primitive cultures (including Israel at some point of time), a god could become a tree, a mountain, a bear, a wolf, a bull... or a man. An epic man. A perfect man. A demi-god.

As time went by, two different interpretations of God on earth interacting with men came in competition:

1. God somehow "dwelled", "inhabited", "manifested in" or "filled" a man.
2. God somehow "became" a man, or "was made" flesh.

For the first interpretation, we have the concept of the Holy Spirit. People speaking on behalf of God were "filled" by the Spirit, as if they were, metaphorically, containers of a divine water, or fire, or Word, or wind (spirit).
For the second, we have the Nicaean view that God became a man, but remained being God at the same time.

From a Jewish monotheistic perspective, which was the one that Jesus and his disciples had and under which they preached the gospel?
Would God become a man? Or would God inhabit, dwell, fill a man?

 

[mikesw]

Well, for many primitive cultures (including Israel at some point of time), a god could become a tree, a mountain, a bear, a wolf, a bull... or a man. An epic man. A perfect man. A demi-god.

As time went by, two different interpretations of God on earth interacting with men came in competition:

1. God somehow "dwells" or "inhabits" or "fills" a man.
2. God somehow "becomes" a man.

For the first interpretation, we have the concept of the Holy Spirit. People speaking on behalf of God were "filled" by the Spirit, as if they were, metaphorically of course, containers of a divine water, or fire, or wind (spirit, etymologically), or Word, or wisdom.
For the second, we have the Nicean view that God became a man, without stopping being God.

From a Jewish monotheistic perspective, which was the one that Jesus and his disciples had and under which they preached the gospel, could God become a man? Or could God rather manifest, inhabit, dwell, fill a man?

Jesus was quite aware of his divinity within the Godhead. It could become obvious to people that God is not made in man's image and thus is more complex than Jews expected -- than anyone expected. Do you have other important restrictions that God could not do?

 

[Runningman]

I find it unreal how you deny the biblical narrative that God became man.

God was manifest in the flesh
The Word who was God became flesh

YHWH declared in the OT he would come and dwell with man and that they would pierce Him.

Zech 12:10- “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Bible 101

God didn't became a man and perpetuate the sin of idolatry. Humans as God are not God. Did God cease being God?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Three in One, The Blessed Trinity. Jesus described God as "the Father", he described himself as God's son, and one with God the Father, and described the Holy Spirit as proceeding from both.

That's exactly the point of Unitarians, my brother.
Jesus described God as "The Father".
Jesus described Himself as "Son of God", not as God.
Jesus described the Holy Spirit as proceeding from God, not as God.

Christian Unitarians think that following Christ's teaching implies describing God as Christ Himself described it.
They are not intending to degrade Christ's work in salvation. They are just considering the Father as Jesus Himself considered Him: The Only and True God.

 

[civic]

Well, for many primitive cultures (including Israel at some point of time), a god could become a tree, a mountain, a bear, a wolf, a bull... or a man. An epic man. A perfect man. A demi-god.

As time went by, two different interpretations of God on earth interacting with men came in competition:

1. God somehow "dwelled", "inhabited", "manifested in" or "filled" a man.
2. God somehow "became" a man, or "was made" flesh.

For the first interpretation, we have the concept of the Holy Spirit. People speaking on behalf of God were "filled" by the Spirit, as if they were, metaphorically, containers of a divine water, or fire, or Word, or wind (spirit).
For the second, we have the Nicaean view that God became a man, but remained being God at the same time.

From a Jewish monotheistic perspective, which was the one that Jesus and his disciples had and under which they preached the gospel?
Would God become a man? Or would God inhabit, dwell, fill a man?

Zech 12:10

 

[mikesw]

That's exactly the point of Unitarians, my brother.
Jesus described God as "The Father".
Jesus described Himself as "Son of God", not as God.
Jesus described the Holy Spirit as proceeding from God, not as God.

Christian Unitarians think that following Christ's teaching implies describing God as Christ Himself described it.
They are not intending to degrade Christ's work in salvation. They are just considering the Father as Jesus Himself considered Him: The Only and True God.

It certainly is a surprise that Unitarians naturally degrade Christ and his work in justification. Is that accidental?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Zech 12:10

Same situation here.
Can God be pierced? Or is this a metaphor?

Well, the answer is within the text itself. Let's read

The Lord will deliver the tents of Judah as before, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of those dwelling in Jerusalem will not eclipse Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will defend those residing in Jerusalem; and even the one who stumbles among them will be as David on that day. And the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going out before them. 9 On that day I will seek to destroy all the nations who come out against Jerusalem.​

And I will pour out on the house of David and over those dwelling in Jerusalem a spirit of favor and supplication so that they look to Me, whom they have pierced through. And they will mourn over him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as a firstborn​

This is a Messianic passage in which God saves Israel from its enemies through the House of David (David's descendant, Jesus).
The House of David is acting on behalf of God, as if it were God... "like God", or more specifically, like a Messenger of God "the angel of the Lord".
The enemies of Israel will mourn and weep bitterly over the damage (piercing) they inflicted over the House of David (and metaphorically, on the God of Israel, on behalf of which the House of David acts).

Therefore, the passage is not saying that the Messiah will be God, or that God will be pierced, but that the Messiah will act like God, a Messenger of God ("the angel of the Lord") and this is how the Messiah will execute God's salvation.