Jesus denied being God

[mikesw]

they find a "work around" for every verse that identifies Him as God or His pre existence in the OT.

I mean like Jude is sort of vague on that point, isn't he?

I suppose when I have read that in the past it was so obvious a point that it was forgettable that he said that. Actually, it has been a long time since I worked my way through the book of Jude. Probably the last time i read it, it was just a cursory read. But we often are influenced by things we have forgotten.

 

[TomL]

Where are they?

You've already ruined your credibility by running away from the fact that Θεὸς (in John 1:1) translates to God.

In his imagination

It is only imagination that one could image the Words

And Thomas answered and said unto him

refers to someone else than he who he is in dialogue with

John 20:26–29 (KJV 1900) — 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[TomL]

I did not ask an answer. I asked a question. If Jesus was already God. Then how did God exalt him to the position of Lord and Christ?

Philippians 2:5–11 (NASB 2020) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

he did not change the divine essence but bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

 

[Runningman]

He is worshiped by all creation as God on the same throne with the Father.

next fallacy

Not according to Revelation. They worshipped God, not the Lamb buddy. Unitarianism 1, Trinitarianism 0.

Revelation 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

 

[Runningman]

You have totally divorced reality. The Greek does not support you.

It refutes you

No bible supports you

Not a single one states Thomas was speaking to God (the Father)

They all say he was speaking to Jesus addressing him as his lord and his God

You have nothing but blind denial and an overwhelming desire to see what you want even when it is not there



Y

Ahem. Tom, sir, the vast majority of Bibles do not agree with what you said nor are they translated in a way that fits your argument. I think I saw one or two at max, but I didn't recognize them as widely used, popular, or often quoted. Have some class and know when you're outclassed. Thomas didn't use the vocative case in John 20:28 therefore virtually no one of standing claims Thomas said directly to Jesus that he is Thomas' god.

And even if Thomas did, it would immediately contradict Trinitarianism that says "God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Thomas would have, in essence, said "You are my Trinity" which is Biblically false and false according to the Trinity.

 

[Runningman]

Where are they?

Modern Translations
New International Version
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

New Living Translation
“My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

English Standard Version
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Berean Study Bible
Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”

New American Standard Bible
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

NASB 1995
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

NASB 1977
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Amplified Bible
Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Christian Standard Bible
Thomas responded to him, “My Lord and my God! ”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Thomas responded to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Good News Translation
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Thomas responded to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"

International Standard Version
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

NET Bible
Thomas replied to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Classic Translations
King James Bible
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

New King James Version
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

King James 2000 Bible
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

New Heart English Bible
Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God."

World English Bible
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

American King James Version
And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God.

American Standard Version
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

A Faithful Version
And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and My God."

Darby Bible Translation
Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

English Revised Version
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

Early Modern

Bishops' Bible of 1568
Thomas aunswered, and sayde vnto hym: My Lorde, and my God.

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Thomas answered, & sayde vnto him: My LORDE, and my God.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Thomas answered and sayde vnto him: my Lorde and my God.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Berean Literal Bible
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Young's Literal Translation
And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God;'

Smith's Literal Translation
And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

Literal Emphasis Translation
Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and My God!

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Thomas responded and said to him, “My Lord and my God.”

Translations from Aramaic
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord, and my God.”

Lamsa Bible
Thomas answered and said to him, O my Lord and my God!

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

Godbey New Testament
Thomas responded and said to Him, My Lord and my God.

Haweis New Testament
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God!

Mace New Testament
Thomas answered, and said to him, my Lord and my God!

Weymouth New Testament
"My Lord and my God!" replied Thomas.

Worrell New Testament
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Worsley New Testament
And Thomas answered, and said, "My Lord and my God."

You've already ruined your credibility by running away from the fact that Θεὸς (in John 1:1) translates to God.

I debunked the Word being God already over the course of two days chatting here. What are you confused about still?

 

[synergy]

Modern Translations
New International Version
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

New Living Translation
“My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

English Standard Version
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Berean Study Bible
Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”

New American Standard Bible
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

NASB 1995
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

NASB 1977
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Amplified Bible
Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Christian Standard Bible
Thomas responded to him, “My Lord and my God! ”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Thomas responded to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Good News Translation
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Thomas responded to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"

International Standard Version
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

NET Bible
Thomas replied to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Classic Translations
King James Bible
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

New King James Version
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

King James 2000 Bible
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

New Heart English Bible
Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God."

World English Bible
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

American King James Version
And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God.

American Standard Version
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

A Faithful Version
And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and My God."

Darby Bible Translation
Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

English Revised Version
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

Early Modern

Bishops' Bible of 1568
Thomas aunswered, and sayde vnto hym: My Lorde, and my God.

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Thomas answered, & sayde vnto him: My LORDE, and my God.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Thomas answered and sayde vnto him: my Lorde and my God.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Berean Literal Bible
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Young's Literal Translation
And Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and my God;'

Smith's Literal Translation
And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

Literal Emphasis Translation
Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and My God!

Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Thomas responded and said to him, “My Lord and my God.”

Translations from Aramaic
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord, and my God.”

Lamsa Bible
Thomas answered and said to him, O my Lord and my God!

NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

Godbey New Testament
Thomas responded and said to Him, My Lord and my God.

Haweis New Testament
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God!

Mace New Testament
Thomas answered, and said to him, my Lord and my God!

Weymouth New Testament
"My Lord and my God!" replied Thomas.

Worrell New Testament
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Worsley New Testament
And Thomas answered, and said, "My Lord and my God."

And? They are perfectly Trinitarian verses. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming.

I debunked the Word being God already over the course of two days chatting here. What are you confused about still?

I'm wondering why you're confused about the fact that Θεὸς (in John 1:1) translates to God.

 

[Runningman]

And? They are perfectly Trinitarian verses. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming.

These are Unitarian verses because Thomas didn’t address Jesus.

I'm wondering why you're confused about the fact that Θεὸς (in John 1:1) translates to God.

What’s the question?

 

[synergy]

These are Unitarian verses because Thomas didn’t address Jesus.

Who else was he addressing, the Butler?

What’s the question?

I'm wondering why you're confused about the fact that Θεὸς (in John 1:1) translates to God.

 

[Peterlag]

Philippians 2:5–11 (NASB 2020) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

he did not change the divine essence but bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

There is no verse that said Jesus emptied himself or even if such a thing was possible.

 

[mikesw]

they find a "work around" for every verse that identifies Him as God or His pre existence in the OT.

Here it is again so they can add their excuse.

I found this point very interesting about Jude 5–6 (ESV)
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.

Details about the divinity of Christ appear in unexpected places.

 

[civic]

Here it is again so they can add their excuse.

I found this point very interesting about Jude 5–6 (ESV)
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.

Details about the divinity of Christ appear in unexpected places.

Amen

 

[mikesw]

Here it is again so they can add their excuse.

I found this point very interesting about Jude 5–6 (ESV)
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.

Details about the divinity of Christ appear in unexpected places.

Amen

This is not a perfect argument but we see the early Christians were comfortable with this equating of Jesus and Lord.

 

[Peterlag]

Amen

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Jude 1:5
I wish to remind you, as you all know, that God, when once he had brought the people out from Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[mikesw]

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Jude 1:5
I wish to remind you, as you all know, that God, when once he had brought the people out from Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Sure. we see how readily interchangeable the words Jesus, Lord, and God are in the minds of early Christians.

The aspect to note is that Jude was not found in the Peshitta in the first 600 years so a version of Jude in Aramaic/Syriac version was a late translation from the Greek. Thus the Syriac version of Jude is a translation is not reflective of the earliest Greek of the NT

 

[Peterlag]

Sure. we see how readily interchangeable the words Jesus, Lord, and God are in the minds of early Christians.

I see God in that one translation, but all the others have Lord. I see no Jesus in any older translations.

 

[mikesw]

I see God in that one translation, but all the others have Lord. I see no Jesus in any older translations.

I added this additional information a bit late.

The aspect to note is that Jude was not found in the Peshitta in the first 600 years so a version of Jude in Aramaic/Syriac version was a late translation from the Greek. Thus the Syriac version of Jude is a translation is not reflective of the earliest Greek of the NT. I'm interested mainly in the snapshot of the Greek and Hebrew from the earlier years.

The earliest writers refer to Jesus here. The earliest version for the verse is P72 papyrus has "θεος χριστος." So either way we are looking at Jesus here.

 

[101G]

I did not ask an answer. I asked a question. If Jesus was already God. Then how did God exalt him to the position of Lord and Christ?

again amalgamation that's how.

101G.

 

[TomL]

There is no verse that said Jesus emptied himself or even if such a thing was possible.

Denial upon denial

Philippians 2:5–7 (ESV) — 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

After all the times I have appealed to this passage

 

[TomL]

Ahem. Tom, sir, the vast majority of Bibles do not agree with what you said nor are they translated in a way that fits your argument. I think I saw one or two at max, but I didn't recognize them as widely used, popular, or often quoted. Have some class and know when you're outclassed. Thomas didn't use the vocative case in John 20:28 therefore virtually no one of standing claims Thomas said directly to Jesus that he is Thomas' god.

And even if Thomas did, it would immediately contradict Trinitarianism that says "God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Thomas would have, in essence, said "You are my Trinity" which is Biblically false and false according to the Trinity.

Sorry but that is a lie

All have Thomas speaking to him (Jesus)

Not one states he said to God (the father)

Not one states he claimed in surprise

My Lord and my God

Not one says OMG

That you can even suggest such shows how desperate you are to deny Christ's deity

PS if you had any understanding of Trinitarianism you would not make the statement that calling one of the trinity God contradicts the trinity

As usual, all you have is denial