Jesus denied being God

why are you pretending to be so unaware of language? These are called rules in Greek and English because these are the way languages have used them. It is not as if some king of English people says "it will be done this way." It is not even that people write this way because they are told to. These rules are probably like culture plus natural plus logical.
There is not a rule in Greek or English known as the Granville Sharp rule or described the way Granville defined the rules. They are not teaching this "rule" to anyone in any secular schools. It's a theological rule used to bolster the Trinitarian position. Good chance you might hear about it in seminary, church, religious boards and sites, but that's probably it.

Ever heard of his book? It's literally invented. His book has a lengthy title, but he literally called it:

"Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament: Containing Many New Proofs of the Divinity of Christ, From Passages Which Are Wrongly Translated in the Common English Version"


Granville said that plurals are an exception to his "rule":

"there is no exception or instance of the like mode of expression, that I know of, which necessarily requires a construction different from what is here laid down, except that nouns be proper names, or in the plural number; in which case there are many exceptions; though there are not wanting examples, even of plural nouns, which are expressed exactly agreeable [sic] to this rule.” (G. Sharp, Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament [3d ed.; London: Rivington, 1803] 6).

Now it's not a rule anymore. It's a theory. It didn't exist in the Greek. He made up the rule, it seemed kind of work if you translate the Greek the "correct" way and Trins went with it. There are a lot of way to debunk the GS rule, but it's lengthy and not worth the effort right now. Plus I am not going into the weeds with you.

Let's look at how the Trinity doesn't fit into the Bible. Quote any verse you wish with a reference to God in it.
 
that's nonsense. Example, the 1 Thessalonians 3:11 "Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you."
the term "OUR" makes the connection that the person that is our God and Father... "HIMSELF" is also .... OUR Lord Jesus the Christ.. how do 101G know this, scripture, James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

God and Father, is the same one person.... thanks Runningman for the video. this has just open up more doors for 101G..... (smile), and again thanks.

when one who is ignorant in their revelation try's to make a point, it's gold for the hearer here in this case.

101G.
I believe I understand the argument you're trying to present. You're trying to say that God and Father and Lord Jesus are not the same person. I have used that concept to actually refute the Trinity with. If that's true, then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not God. See, you showed such by quoting the verses you did. God is someone else completely, right? Forget all of those contradictions about the Father being God, right?

Sorry, 101G but you are misunderstanding the grammar. They are not implying diversified oneness... and that wasn't my video... I think you're referring to someone else. Good night.
 
There is not a rule in Greek or English known as the Granville Sharp rule or described the way Granville defined the rules. They are not teaching this "rule" to anyone in any secular schools. It's a theological rule used to bolster the Trinitarian position. Good chance you might hear about it in seminary, church, religious boards and sites, but that's probably it.

Ever heard of his book? It's literally invented. His book has a lengthy title, but he literally called it:

"Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament: Containing Many New Proofs of the Divinity of Christ, From Passages Which Are Wrongly Translated in the Common English Version"


Granville said that plurals are an exception to his "rule":

"there is no exception or instance of the like mode of expression, that I know of, which necessarily requires a construction different from what is here laid down, except that nouns be proper names, or in the plural number; in which case there are many exceptions; though there are not wanting examples, even of plural nouns, which are expressed exactly agreeable [sic] to this rule.” (G. Sharp, Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament [3d ed.; London: Rivington, 1803] 6).

Now it's not a rule anymore. It's a theory. It didn't exist in the Greek. He made up the rule, it seemed kind of work if you translate the Greek the "correct" way and Trins went with it. There are a lot of way to debunk the GS rule, but it's lengthy and not worth the effort right now. Plus I am not going into the weeds with you.

Let's look at how the Trinity doesn't fit into the Bible. Quote any verse you wish with a reference to God in it.
so you are observing that the rule applies except where the rule indicates it would be nonsensical to apply it based on the exceptions you list. I can imagine how shocked Granville would be for you to notice the exceptions he lists as natural exceptions.
 
I believe I understand the argument you're trying to present. You're trying to say that God and Father and Lord Jesus are not the same person. I have used that concept to actually refute the Trinity with. If that's true, then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not God. See, you showed such by quoting the verses you did. God is someone else completely, right? Forget all of those contradictions about the Father being God, right?

Sorry, 101G but you are misunderstanding the grammar. They are not implying diversified oneness... and that wasn't my video... I think you're referring to someone else. Good night.
no, you and the fella on the vid are in ERROR on the grammar... listen the Only Person in the Godhead is the "HOLY SPIRIT", ... (smile), who holds both titles "Father" and "Son".... listen in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK, just as the term "Beginning" in Genesis 1:1 clearly STATES.

see, if one wants to end right...... start right.

101G.
 
I find it a genuine marvel that Trinitarians don't believe even when decades after Jesus was taken to heaven, that Paul kept on calling Jesus a man between God and men. For the readers, let that sink in. Paul, a man, referred to Jesus as a man between God and men, even after he was taken to heaven.

It says Jesus is a man between God and men. In other words, based on the Trinitarian concept of Jesus, 1 Tim. 2:5 says Jesus is a man between the Trinity and men! Wow. I think my new favorite exercise is writing the Trinity into the Bible and showing everyone how Trinitarianism refutes itself. Turns out that the strongest argument against the Trinity is the Trinity.

Someone here said something to me that made me realize we can't reach Trins using Scripture because they aren't using Scripture. That's the mistake we always make, counterintuitively. The words of the Bible can be manipulated by a skillful theologian or lawyer to say or suggest anything. They always find a way out of the truth with a different version, commentary, theologian, etc.

I believe we need to experiment more with demonstration of how the Trinity isn't Scriptural when the Trinity is actually written into the Bible.
Let me comment on the last part that you just wrote because it's used on me by the trinity folks all the time. I'm talking about how you just said a skillful theologian or lawyer can make the Scripture say anything. Ten minutes into this video a guy just proved that the Apostle Peter was with Eve in the garden...
 
Let me comment on the last part that you just wrote because it's used on me by the trinity folks all the time. I'm talking about how you just said a skillful theologian or lawyer can make the Scripture say anything. Ten minutes into this video a guy just proved that the Apostle Peter was with Eve in the garden...
Okay. Sean creates an example of an interpretation fallacy. That is just like the ones runningman is doing. So it was good to point out that error of runningman. We also see the gullibility of Unitarians to think Sean's point was useful against Trinitarians. Maybe this video was a spoof against Unitarians. That still does not make an argument against Christ's divinity in the Godhead.
 
Okay. Sean creates an example of an interpretation fallacy. That is just like the ones runningman is doing. So it was good to point out that error of runningman. We also see the gullibility of Unitarians to think Sean's point was useful against Trinitarians. Maybe this video was a spoof against Unitarians. That still does not make an argument against Christ's divinity in the Godhead.
From my very own writing in chapter 6 of my book I write that God highly exalt Jesus after He raised him out from among the dead. How would this be done if Jesus was already God?


Highly Exalt: To make high above, raise high above, raise high. To highly exalt over all. (28)


Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Philippians 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:


God highly exalted the living Christ by raising him in rank, power, and character. The Father gave him a name that is above every other name when He made him both Lord and Christ, making it available for him to function as the head of the church that you and I now belong to. God, who is almighty in heaven and on the earth, has given Christ the absolute rule, authority, and power and has set him over the works of the Church of God, making him the head of the body of Christ that is functioning within this our Grace administration.
 
From my very own writing in chapter 6 of my book I write that God highly exalt Jesus after He raised him out from among the dead. How would this be done if Jesus was already God?

URL unfurl="true"]jesus.html[/URL]

Highly Exalt: To make high above, raise high above, raise high. To highly exalt over all. (28)


Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Philippians 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:


God highly exalted the living Christ by raising him in rank, power, and character. The Father gave him a name that is above every other name when He made him both Lord and Christ, making it available for him to function as the head of the church that you and I now belong to. God, who is almighty in heaven and on the earth, has given Christ the absolute rule, authority, and power and has set him over the works of the Church of God, making him the head of the body of Christ that is functioning within this our Grace administration.
It is the regular pattern we see in the gospels where Christ glorifies God and God glorifies Christ. Christ Jesus also receives back the glory he had with the Father before the world existed. So it is not some sudden surprise that God has exalted Christ to the people through the resurrection of Christ from the dead.
The message shared in Acts 5:31 is fine for sharing to this message to the council. They see now that Christ is glorified. The are seeing Christ glorified among them in a way that was not to their attention before Christ's death and resurrection. They need to know this is of God despite their rejection of it.
 
Reads like "The Great Trinity and our Savior Jesus Christ" which would prove Jesus is not a member of the Trinitarian Godhead.
Only if you do not understand scripture or trinitarianism or how the word God is used in scripture



I want you to read your religion into the Bible and find it doesn't make any sense.

See above. Your Trinity is being challenged by Scripture.
Um scripture supports the trinity it is only your denial of scripture which does not as shown multiple times
 
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I have found at least a dozen scholars who disagree with you. I have given you the sources already as I always do. Some of them are not publicly available to quote, but you can research them and find out why the vocative case is used for addressing people.

No you did not as my quotes showed. They all note the text has Thomas calling jesus my lord and my God
Among the hordes of Trinitarians and Greek experts who have had the privilege to translate and publish the Bible have ultimately disagreed with your translation. Though you quote those who say what you wish John 20:28 says, the Bible translations ultimately disagree with you and agree with me! Wow man.

You might find one or two translations, tops, that says what you say, but the vast majority in church circulation that are common today do not say "YOU ARE my Lord and my God." Based on this very fact alone, your theory about Jesus being addressed as God by Thomas is fully refuted.
Fantasy and wishful thinking as well as denial of plain English text

They all have Thomas addressing Jesus

Just shows how desperate and what lengths you will go to deny the deity of Christ


Thomas said unto him

Thomas is using direct address (Vocative) to call Jesus his lord and his God according to Greek experts



John 20:28

My Lord and my God (ὁ κυριος μου και ὁ θεος μου [Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.


A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 20:28.

The art. is used with θεός not merely because a voc. nom. is commonly art. in HGk. but in particular because when a poss. pron. follows a voc. nom., the noun is always art.
Thomas’s cry, “My Lord and my God!” is an exclamatory address, an exclamation specifically directed to Jesus, as its subject and recipient (note αὐτῷ). That the cry was not an extravagant acclamation, spoken in a moment of spiritual exaltation when his exuberance exceeded his theological sense, is apparent from two facts.

1. The evangelist records no rebuke of Jesus to Thomas for his worship (cf. 5:18; Acts 14:8–18; Rev 19:9–10; 21:8–9). Thomas was not guilty of worshiping the creature over the Creator (cf. Rom 1:25). Indeed, Jesus’ word to Thomas—“You have believed” (v. 29a)—implies the acceptance of his confession, which is then indirectly commended to others (v. 29b).
2. John has endorsed Thomas’s confession by making it his final and climactic Christological affirmation. The apostle found in Thomas’s cry a convenient means by which he might bring into sharp focus at the end of his gospel, as at its beginning (1:1, 18), the ultimate implications of his portrait of Jesus. As “Lord” in the physical and spiritual realms, Jesus shared his Father’s authority, functions, and rights (5:17–18, 21–23, 26). As “God,” he was one with the Father in his being (1:1, 18; 10:30).


Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 333–334.

The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.

Joh_20:28. Grotius, following Tertullian, Ambrose, Cyril and others, is of opinion that Thomas availed himself of the offered test: surely it is psychologically more probable that the test he had insisted on as alone sufficient is now repudiated, and that he at once exclaims, Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. His faith returns with a rebound and utters itself in a confession in which the gospel culminates. The words are not a mere exclamation of surprise. That is forbidden by εἶπεν αὐτῷ; they mean “Thou art my Lord and my God”.
Expositors Greek testament
 
so you are observing that the rule applies except where the rule indicates it would be nonsensical to apply it based on the exceptions you list. I can imagine how shocked Granville would be for you to notice the exceptions he lists as natural exceptions.
No, just using his own words to disprove his own rule. Wow... the Trinity's god is a plurality of three persons and the Granville Sharp rule makes exceptions for plurals. Seeing that? The Granville Sharp rule refutes itself and is false. It doesn't work with the Trinity concept. You'll also notice that the GS rule only mysteriously pops up when Jesus and God are mentioned in the same context. Surprise surprise. I wonder how that happened.
 
no, you and the fella on the vid are in ERROR on the grammar... listen the Only Person in the Godhead is the "HOLY SPIRIT", ... (smile), who holds both titles "Father" and "Son".... listen in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK, just as the term "Beginning" in Genesis 1:1 clearly STATES.

see, if one wants to end right...... start right.

101G.
I am miles past the video at this point. Look up English and Greek grammar rules. The GS rule is neither described or stated to be a rule. It's actually a half baked idea that lacks any grammatical consistency. GS was clever to make it up but ultimately there are too many exceptions for it to be a real rule.
 
It's totally absurd. It seems they will go to any length to deny the truth.
Now you sound desperate. You have been challenged and refuted up and down the board 7 ways to Sunday at this point. Does lying about people "denying the truth" make you feel better?
 
No you did not as my quotes showed. They all note the text has Thomas calling jesus my lord and my God

Fantasy and wishful thinking as well as denial of plain English text

They all have Thomas addressing Jesus

Just shows how desperate and what lengths you will go to deny the deity of Christ


Thomas said unto him

Thomas is using direct address (Vocative) to call Jesus his lord and his God according to Greek experts



John 20:28

My Lord and my God (ὁ κυριος μου και ὁ θεος μου [Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.


A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 20:28.

The art. is used with θεός not merely because a voc. nom. is commonly art. in HGk. but in particular because when a poss. pron. follows a voc. nom., the noun is always art.
Thomas’s cry, “My Lord and my God!” is an exclamatory address, an exclamation specifically directed to Jesus, as its subject and recipient (note αὐτῷ). That the cry was not an extravagant acclamation, spoken in a moment of spiritual exaltation when his exuberance exceeded his theological sense, is apparent from two facts.

1. The evangelist records no rebuke of Jesus to Thomas for his worship (cf. 5:18; Acts 14:8–18; Rev 19:9–10; 21:8–9). Thomas was not guilty of worshiping the creature over the Creator (cf. Rom 1:25). Indeed, Jesus’ word to Thomas—“You have believed” (v. 29a)—implies the acceptance of his confession, which is then indirectly commended to others (v. 29b).
2. John has endorsed Thomas’s confession by making it his final and climactic Christological affirmation. The apostle found in Thomas’s cry a convenient means by which he might bring into sharp focus at the end of his gospel, as at its beginning (1:1, 18), the ultimate implications of his portrait of Jesus. As “Lord” in the physical and spiritual realms, Jesus shared his Father’s authority, functions, and rights (5:17–18, 21–23, 26). As “God,” he was one with the Father in his being (1:1, 18; 10:30).


Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 333–334.

The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.

Joh_20:28. Grotius, following Tertullian, Ambrose, Cyril and others, is of opinion that Thomas availed himself of the offered test: surely it is psychologically more probable that the test he had insisted on as alone sufficient is now repudiated, and that he at once exclaims, Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. His faith returns with a rebound and utters itself in a confession in which the gospel culminates. The words are not a mere exclamation of surprise. That is forbidden by εἶπεν αὐτῷ; they mean “Thou art my Lord and my God”.
Expositors Greek testament
Your version is an argument and not a popular one as I have demonstrated with my sources that completely refute them and about two dozen Bibles that are translated my way and not your way. I don't know why you always take the underdog position in every debate, but clearly I have more support from the Christian community than you do.

Aside from that, Jesus being Thomas' god is not a Biblical doctrine. No one else said that or did what Thomas did. No one taught something similar to it. Thomas had already seen Jesus for years do mighty miracles at this point so it wouldn't stand to reason that Thomas would be a doubter in who Jesus is.

What Thomas was doubting was that, despite the mighty miracles, that Jesus was raised from the dead. Thomas thought the dead resurrecting was too much, clearly, and completely doubted it like a normal person would. What sold Thomas on Jesus' resurrection was seeing him alive and well. Thomas objectively made a declaration, probably in shock, saying "my Lord and my God" rather than an address to Jesus. The Greek, the Bible, and an army of theologians, experts, and academia completely support the vocative case being used for directly addressing someone in Greek. John 20:28 isn't translated your way in any popular or commonly used Bible. Case closed.

Sometimes I don't think you actually pause and think about what you are arguing against. You are actually arguing against established and universally accepted Greek grammar rules. LoL. It's funny. I think you will argue anything.

Here's a question then. If your version is right, why did 99% of everyone ultimately disagree with it and not dare write "you are my Lord and my God" into Scripture? This is more of a question to self-reflect and wake up more than an actual opening for you to argue more. Think about it.
 
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No, just using his own words to disprove his own rule. Wow... the Trinity's god is a plurality of three persons and the Granville Sharp rule makes exceptions for plurals. Seeing that? The Granville Sharp rule refutes itself and is false. It doesn't work with the Trinity concept. You'll also notice that the GS rule only mysteriously pops up when Jesus and God are mentioned in the same context. Surprise surprise. I wonder how that happened.
The unitarian god is a singularity of one person and the rules of unitarian grammar makes exceptions and excuses for singularity. Seeing that? The rule refutes itself and is false. It doesn't work with the unitarian concept. You'll also notice that the unitarian rules only mysteriously pops up when Jesus and God are mentioned in the same context. Surprise surprise. I wonder how that happened.

next......

hope this helps !!!
 
The unitarian god is a singularity of one person and the rules of unitarian grammar makes exceptions and excuses for singularity. Seeing that? The rule refutes itself and is false. It doesn't work with the unitarian concept. You'll also notice that the unitarian rules only mysteriously pops up when Jesus and God are mentioned in the same context. Surprise surprise. I wonder how that happened.

next......

hope this helps !!!
LoL low effort troll post. You're just playing at this point.
 
LoL low effort troll post. You're just playing at this point.
just showing how your argument works both ways since we know God uses both singular and plural pronouns about who God is in scripture.

you have a double standard accepting the singular and rejecting the plural.

you are biased whereas Trins are not.

hope this helps !!!
 
one question, "is the Gift of God your source or God's?" ..... thank you case closed.

101G.
Right...Like I give myself gifts. Do you read the posts? Because they seem to go right over your head. You never had a case to close in the first place.

James 1:17 KJV: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
 
From my very own writing in chapter 6 of my book I write that God highly exalt Jesus after He raised him out from among the dead. How would this be done if Jesus was already God?
GINOLJC, to all.
it was the Lord Jesus who as God/Spirit rose his own body up from the grave. scripture, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?" John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body." John 2:22 "When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."

now, either the Lord Jesus is Lord, or he lied, (God forbid). so please answer 101G as to if you believe that Jesus is God who raised up his own body.

101G.
 
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