Jesus denied being God

[101G]

I am miles past the video at this point. Look up English and Greek grammar rules. The GS rule is neither described or stated to be a rule. It's actually a half baked idea that lacks any grammatical consistency. GS was clever to make it up but ultimately there are too many exceptions for it to be a real rule.

first thanks for the reply. second 101G can careless about any rules you, 101G or GS may make... the only rule counts are the scriptures. and as for the scriptures they reign supreme. just because 101G pointed out your vid ERROR, dose not make nor break GS rule. .... OBEY GOD.

101G.

 

[101G]

Right...Like I give myself gifts. Do you read the posts? Because they seem to go right over your head. You never had a case to close in the first place.

---

James 1:17 KJV: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

so why even ask the ignorant question, why you didn't believe 101G when he said we all are NOTHING without God who made us. what you didn't understand the post?

101G.

 

[TomL]

Your version is an argument and not a popular one as I have demonstrated with my sources that completely refute them and about two dozen Bibles that are translated my way and not your way. I don't know why you always take the underdog position in every debate, but clearly I have more support from the Christian community than you do.

Sorry you have no clue what you are talking about

All the bibles have Thomas speaking to Jesus

Not one has him speaking to God

Your claim is totally delusional

Greek experts have noted that impossible because of the words εἶπεν αὐτῷ.

This Just shows how desperate and what lengths you will go to deny the deity of Christ


Thomas said unto him "My lord and my God"

Thomas is using direct address (Vocative) to call Jesus his lord and his God according to Greek experts



John 20:28

My Lord and my God (ὁ κυριος μου και ὁ θεος μου [Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.


A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 20:28.

The art. is used with θεός not merely because a voc. nom. is commonly art. in HGk. but in particular because when a poss. pron. follows a voc. nom., the noun is always art.
Thomas’s cry, “My Lord and my God!” is an exclamatory address, an exclamation specifically directed to Jesus, as its subject and recipient (note αὐτῷ). That the cry was not an extravagant acclamation, spoken in a moment of spiritual exaltation when his exuberance exceeded his theological sense, is apparent from two facts.

1. The evangelist records no rebuke of Jesus to Thomas for his worship (cf. 5:18; Acts 14:8–18; Rev 19:9–10; 21:8–9). Thomas was not guilty of worshiping the creature over the Creator (cf. Rom 1:25). Indeed, Jesus’ word to Thomas—“You have believed” (v. 29a)—implies the acceptance of his confession, which is then indirectly commended to others (v. 29b).
2. John has endorsed Thomas’s confession by making it his final and climactic Christological affirmation. The apostle found in Thomas’s cry a convenient means by which he might bring into sharp focus at the end of his gospel, as at its beginning (1:1, 18), the ultimate implications of his portrait of Jesus. As “Lord” in the physical and spiritual realms, Jesus shared his Father’s authority, functions, and rights (5:17–18, 21–23, 26). As “God,” he was one with the Father in his being (1:1, 18; 10:30).


Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 333–334.

The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.

Joh_20:28. Grotius, following Tertullian, Ambrose, Cyril and others, is of opinion that Thomas availed himself of the offered test: surely it is psychologically more probable that the test he had insisted on as alone sufficient is now repudiated, and that he at once exclaims, Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. His faith returns with a rebound and utters itself in a confession in which the gospel culminates. The words are not a mere exclamation of surprise. That is forbidden by εἶπεν αὐτῷ; they mean “Thou art my Lord and my God”.
Expositors Greek testament


You really do need to give it up as your denial are beyond absurd and a complete denial of scripture

 

[TomL]

Now you sound desperate. You have been challenged and refuted up and down the board 7 ways to Sunday at this point. Does lying about people "denying the truth" make you feel better?

Laughable

Your arguments have been weak and a denial of scripture and severely refuted by context, exegesis and Greek expert commentary as well as standard.

You should be embarrassed of them

 

[101G]

Thomas said unto him "My lord and my God"

Thomas is using direct address (Vocative) to call Jesus his lord and his God according to Greek experts

then that eliminates any other person in the Godhead, for Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." me is a single designation, and beside him/ME... there is no God. and that's God with the capital G in God. so, that eliminates any other person in the Godhead.

101G.

 

[TomL]

then that eliminates any other person in the Godhead, for Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." me is a single designation, and beside him/ME... there is no God. and that's God with the capital G in God. so, that eliminates any other person in the Godhead.

101G.

No it doesn't

Jesus is not another God besides the father but a person within the one godhead

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you have no clue what you are talking about

All the bibles have Thomas speaking to Jesus

Not one has him speaking to God

Your claim is totally delusional

Greek experts have noted that impossible because of the words εἶπεν αὐτῷ.

This Just shows how desperate and what lengths you will go to deny the deity of Christ


Thomas said unto him "My lord and my God"

Thomas is using direct address (Vocative) to call Jesus his lord and his God according to Greek experts



John 20:28

My Lord and my God (ὁ κυριος μου και ὁ θεος μου [Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.


A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 20:28.

The art. is used with θεός not merely because a voc. nom. is commonly art. in HGk. but in particular because when a poss. pron. follows a voc. nom., the noun is always art.
Thomas’s cry, “My Lord and my God!” is an exclamatory address, an exclamation specifically directed to Jesus, as its subject and recipient (note αὐτῷ). That the cry was not an extravagant acclamation, spoken in a moment of spiritual exaltation when his exuberance exceeded his theological sense, is apparent from two facts.

1. The evangelist records no rebuke of Jesus to Thomas for his worship (cf. 5:18; Acts 14:8–18; Rev 19:9–10; 21:8–9). Thomas was not guilty of worshiping the creature over the Creator (cf. Rom 1:25). Indeed, Jesus’ word to Thomas—“You have believed” (v. 29a)—implies the acceptance of his confession, which is then indirectly commended to others (v. 29b).
2. John has endorsed Thomas’s confession by making it his final and climactic Christological affirmation. The apostle found in Thomas’s cry a convenient means by which he might bring into sharp focus at the end of his gospel, as at its beginning (1:1, 18), the ultimate implications of his portrait of Jesus. As “Lord” in the physical and spiritual realms, Jesus shared his Father’s authority, functions, and rights (5:17–18, 21–23, 26). As “God,” he was one with the Father in his being (1:1, 18; 10:30).


Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 333–334.

The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.

Joh_20:28. Grotius, following Tertullian, Ambrose, Cyril and others, is of opinion that Thomas availed himself of the offered test: surely it is psychologically more probable that the test he had insisted on as alone sufficient is now repudiated, and that he at once exclaims, Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου. His faith returns with a rebound and utters itself in a confession in which the gospel culminates. The words are not a mere exclamation of surprise. That is forbidden by εἶπεν αὐτῷ; they mean “Thou art my Lord and my God”.
Expositors Greek testament


You really do need to give it up as your denial are beyond absurd and a complete denial of scripture

Hello. It doesn't help to just keep copying and pasting the same refuted theologians as if other theologians who state Thomas made a declaration, rather than an address, don't exist The vocative case is used for addressing people in Greek, yes I am aware of the obscure intricacies of Greek that can possibly be argued that a nominative can become a vocative, but that is completely subjective. Case in point, barely anyone has translated the various Bible as such because your preference is not able to be proven in John 20:28. On top of all of that, you have clearly evaded all proof to the contrary.

So you believe Thomas essentially said "You are my Lord and my Trinity?" since God means Trinity in the Bible? Wow. That debunks the Trinity. See, we have already tested the soundness of your theory against your religion and it blew up.

 

[101G]

No it doesn't

personal opinion? lol, lol, lol, just because U said so....lol, .

Jesus is not another God besides the father but a person within the one godhead

LOL, read the scripture, "and beside me there is no God." check.... mate again... 101G suggest you implement the FIRST PRINCIPLE of God...... good day.

101G.

 

[Runningman]

Laughable

Your arguments have been weak and a denial of scripture and severely refuted by context, exegesis and Greek expert commentary as well as standard.

You should be embarrassed of them

Thomas didn't say [you are] my Lord and my God in pretty much all of the versions. No denials on my part. The Greek, the experts, and the most common Bible translations make my argument for me. Yours is the fringe argument. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Runningman]

just showing how your argument works both ways since we know God uses both singular and plural pronouns about who God is in scripture.

you have a double standard accepting the singular and rejecting the plural.

you are biased whereas Trans are not.

hope this helps !!!

The argument doesn't work both ways. Writing "the Father" into the Bible where God is mentioned relative to Jesus works grammatically and scripturally. Writing "the Trinity" into the Bible where God is mentioned can only be described as extreme violence to the Scripture. It's pretty bad.

 

[civic]

Thomas didn't say [you are] my Lord and my God in pretty much all of the versions. No denials on my part. The Greek, the experts, and the most common Bible translations make my argument for me. Yours is the fringe argument. You should be ashamed of yourself.

so when king David says My God, my Savior he is not saying YHWH you are my God, you are my Savior.

any more ridiculous arguments

 

[Runningman]

so when king David says My God, my Savior he is not saying YHWH you are my God, you are my Savior.

any more ridiculous arguments

Not sure which verse you're talking about, but, for example, when Jesus said "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" it was in the vocative. Yes, he was directly addressing God. It's so disappointing you all reject so much of the Bible. shaking my head.

 

[TomL]

I am miles past the video at this point. Look up English and Greek grammar rules. The GS rule is neither described or stated to be a rule. It's actually a half baked idea that lacks any grammatical consistency. GS was clever to make it up but ultimately there are too many exceptions for it to be a real rule.

So do you care to post any violation of Granville Sharps rule found in scripture

If you can't you are just blowing smoke

The Granville Sharp Rule states, “When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill], if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle” (Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article, 3).In simpler terms, the Granville Sharp Rule says that when two singular common nouns [not proper names]are used to describe a person, and those two nouns are joined by an additive conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second, then both nouns refer to the same person. This principle of semantics holds true in all languages.

 

[Whosoever]

Jesus did not deny being God.

I and the Father are One. John 10:30

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9

Three in One.

The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it). 2 Corinthians 13:14

 

[TomL]

Thomas didn't say [you are] my Lord and my God in pretty much all of the versions. No denials on my part. The Greek, the experts, and the most common Bible translations make my argument for me. Yours is the fringe argument. You should be ashamed of yourself.

sorry, all translations have Thomas speaking to Jesus

Not one has him speaking to God (the father)

and as noted Greek experts have him using direct address

THE VOCATIVE CASE

There is a fifth case that really has no sentence slot to live in. Maybe it isn’t a true case. But it does seem to have a discrete ending sometimes. It did not show up on the article chart because this case has no article.
It is the way you spell someone (or something) when you are talking directly to him (it):

πάτερ, ἄφες αὐτοῖς (Father, forgive them.)




Here, “Father” is written in the Vocative case.
New Testament Vocatives are rare and those with discrete endings differing from the Nominative endings are extremely rare.


Edward W. Goodrick, Do It Yourself Hebrew and Greek: A Guide to Biblical Language Tools (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1980), x.

also

Direct address
The vocative case in Greek is used for direct address123. It is used when addressing someone directly, calling out to an individual by name, or welcoming or referring to them by name3. The vocative case is usually identical to the nominative case in form3. It is sometimes accompanied by the particle "o" to add emphasis or emotion3. Each declension has its own vocative form4.

My Lord and my God (ὁ κυριος μου και ὁ θεος μου [Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 20:28.

28.] The Socinian view, that these words, ὁ κύρ. μου κ. ὁ θεός μου, are merely an exclamation, is refuted—(1) By the fact that no such exclamations were in use among the Jews. (2) By the εἶπεν αὐτῷ. (3) By the impossibility of referring ὁ κύριός μου to another than Jesus: see ver. 13. (4) By the N.T. usage of expressing the vocative by the nom. with an article. (5) By the utter psychological absurdity of such a supposition: that one just convinced of the presence of Him whom he deeply loved, should, instead of addressing Him, break out into an irrelevant cry. (6) By the further absurdity of supposing that if such were the case, the Apostle John, who of all the sacred writers most constantly keeps in mind the object for which he is writing, should have recorded any thing so beside that object. (7) By the intimate conjunction of πεπίστευκας—see below. Dismissing it therefore, we observe that this is the highest confession of faith which has yet been made;—and that it shews that (though not yet fully) the meaning of the previous confessions of His being ‘the Son of God’ was understood. Thus John, in the very close of his Gospel (see on vv. 30, 31) iterates the testimony with which he began it—to the Godhead of the Word who became flesh: and by this closing confession, shews how the testimony of Jesus to Himself had gradually deepened and exalted the Apostles’ conviction, from the time when they knew Him only as ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ Ἰωσήφ (ch. 1:46), till now when He is acknowledged as their LORD and their GOD.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 912.


First you ignored the Greek experts which addressed your argument concerning the vocative case showing it was bogus

second it is an outright lie that There is an entire community of scholars, experts, and theologians who have debunked me

Verse 28. Thomas answered, &c.] Those who deny the Godhead of Christ would have us to believe that these words are an exclamation of Thomas, made through surprise, and that they were addressed to the Father and not to Christ. Theodore of Mopsuestia was the first, I believe, who gave the words this turn; and the fifth Œcumenic council, held at Constantinople, anathematized him for it. This was not according to the spirit of the Gospel of God. However, a man must do violence to every rule of construction who can apply the address here to any but Christ. The text is plain: Jesus comes in—sees Thomas, and addresses him; desiring him to come to him, and put his finger into the print of the nails, &c. Thomas, perfectly satisfied of the reality of our Lord’s resurrection, says unto him,—MY LORD! and MY GOD! i

Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 659.

My Lord and my God. In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons: 1st. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment. 2d. The language was addressed to Jesus himself—“Thomas—said UNTO HIM.” 3d. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 379.

My Lord and my God (ὁ κυριος μου και ὁ θεος μου [Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koiné. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 20:28.

Thomas’s cry, “My Lord and my God!” is an exclamatory address, an exclamation specifically directed to Jesus, as its subject and recipient (note αὐτῷ). That the cry was not an extravagant acclamation, spoken in a moment of spiritual exaltation when his exuberance exceeded his theological sense, is apparent from two facts.

1. The evangelist records no rebuke of Jesus to Thomas for his worship (cf. 5:18; Acts 14:8–18; Rev 19:9–10; 21:8–9). Thomas was not guilty of worshiping the creature over the Creator (cf. Rom 1:25). Indeed, Jesus’ word to Thomas—“You have believed” (v. 29a)—implies the acceptance of his confession, which is then indirectly commended to others (v. 29b).
2. John has endorsed Thomas’s confession by making it his final and climactic Christological affirmation

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 333–334.

Thomas’ response, My Lord and My God! is the high point of the Gospel. Here was a skeptical man, confronted by the evidence of Jesus’ resurrection. He announced that Jesus, the Man of Galilee, is God manifest in the flesh

Edwin A. Blum, “John,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck; vol. 2; Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 2343–344.

note this is the BKC it does not support you

Thomas’s confession of Jesus as my Lord and my God is yet another climax in this Gospel. Jesus has invited him to catch up with the others in their new stage of faith, and he shoots past them and heads to the top of the class. His confession is climactic not only as part of the Gospel’s story line, but also as an expression of the core of John’s witness to Jesus in this Gospel. Thomas confesses Jesus as God when he sees that the crucified one is alive

Rodney A. Whitacre, John (vol. 4; The IVP New Testament Commentary Series; Westmont, IL: IVP Academic, 1999), 485.

My Lord and my God] The climax of the gospel. The unbelief of Thomas passes into faith in Christ’s true Deity. Observe that Jesus accepts and approves the confession of Thomas

J. R. Dummelow, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Bible (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1936), 810.

Thomas rises to the challenge and responds by uttering one of the great confessions of history, “My Lord and my God” (v. 28). These words have become the fitting climax and theological core of the Fourth Gospel. While some have tried to turn Thomas’s words into a mere part of the developing understanding of the disciples, they are so much more. With 1:1 (“The Word was God”) this Gospel is framed by statements of Jesus’ deity. It is an astounding leap of faith and understanding, as Thomas had spent the last seven days doubting Jesus’ resurrection and now all of a sudden affirms that he is the one and only God

Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 470.

John 20:24–29 (KJV 1900) — 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Thomas’ utterance cannot possibly be taken as shocked profanity addressed to God (if to anyone), a kind of blasphemous version of a stunned ‘My word!’ Despite its popularity with some modern Arians, such profanity would not have been found in first-century Palestine on the lips of a devout Jew. In any case, Thomas’ confession is addressed to him, i.e. to Jesus; and Jesus immediately (if implicitly) praises him for his faith, even if it is not as notable as the faith of those who believe without demanding the kind of evidence accorded Thomas. Nor are Thomas’ words most easily read as a predicative statement addressed to Jesus: ‘My Lord is also my God.’ The overwhelming majority of grammarians rightly take the utterance as vocative address to Jesus: My Lord and my God!—the nouns being put not in the vocative case but in the nominative (as sometimes happens in vocatival address) to add a certain sonorous weight.

D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John (The Pillar New Testament Commentary; Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 658–659.

Ver. 28. My Lord and my God! [ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου! An address of Thomas to Christ (the nom. with the art. for the vocative, as often in the New Testament; compare Christ’s address to His Father, Mark 15:34: ὁ θεός μου, ὁ θεός μου. The highest apostolic confession of faith in the Lordship and Divinity of Christ,—an echo of the beginning of this Gospel: “The Word was God,” 1:1, and an anticipation of its close, 20:30, 31. Thomas, says Augustine, behold and touched Christ as Man, and confessed Him to be God, whom he did not see nor touch

John Peter Lange and Philip Schaff, A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: John (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2008), 622.

enfd pt1

 

[TomL]

end pt1

Continued response to runningman

Thomas’s response forms the high point of confession in the Gospel. What it does is bring the Gospel full circle from the Prologue, where it is emphatically said that the “Word was God” (1:1) to this confession, “My Lord and my God.” In the process of writing this Gospel the evangelist has proclaimed that Jesus was active in creation (1:2), the Word who became incarnate/enfleshed (1:14), the sin-bearing Lamb of God (1:29, 36), the Messiah (1:41; 4:25–26), the Son of God (1:48), the King of Israel (1:48), the new Temple (2:19–21), a teacher sent from God (3:2), a new symbol of God’s power exhibited through Moses (3:14), the evidence of the love of God (3:16), the Savior of the World (4:42), equal with God (5:18), the authority in judgment (5:27), the agent of God (5:30), the fulfillment of Scripture (5:39), the expected prophet (6:14), the “I am” (6:35, etc.), the supplier of living water (7:38), the one who was from God (9:31–33), the Son of Man (9:35), the consecrated/Holy one (10:36), the lifted up one (4:14; 12:32–34), the glorified one (13:31), the preparer of his followers’ destiny (14:2), the nonabandoning one (14:18), the one in whom we must abide and who is the basis for the fruitfulness of his followers (15:5–7), the sender of the Paraclete (15:26), the bearer of truth (18:37), the crucified King (19:15), the risen Lord (20:20) and God (20:26). The list can be expanded greatly, but the point is that when this list is compared to the designations of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels, the other presentations of Jesus pale in significance before these magnificent confessions about him in John. In the years of contemplating the significance of Jesus, the Johannine evangelist in the context of that early community has supplied for the church of all ages a truly masterful statement about Jesus—Jesus is indeed Lord and God

Gerald L. Borchert, John 12–21 (vol. 25B; The New American Commentary; Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2002), 314–315.

and another source you claim which does not support you

The faith of Thomas is full of significance. First, it is helpful to our own faith to hear so decisive and so full a confession coming from the lips of such a man. John himself felt it to be so decisive that after recording it he virtually closes the Gospel which he had undertaken to write in order to persuade men that Jesus is the Son of God. After this confession of Thomas he feels that no more can be said. He stops not for want of matter; "many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples" which are not written in this Gospel. These seemed sufficient. The man who is not moved by this will not be moved by any further proof. Proof is not what such a doubter needs. Whatever we think of the other Apostles, it is plain that Thomas at least was not credulous. If Peter’s generous ardour carried him to a confession unwarranted by the facts, if John saw in Jesus the reflection of his own contemplative and loving nature, what are we to say of the faith of Thomas? He had no determination to see only what he desired, no readiness to accept baseless evidence and irresponsible testimony. He knew the critical nature of the situation, the unique importance of the matter presented to his faith. With him there was no frivolous or thoughtless underrating of difficulties. He did not absolutely deny the possibility of Christ’s resurrection, but he went very near doing so, and showed that practically he considered it either impossible or unlikely in the extreme. But in the end he believes. And the ease with which he passes from doubt to faith proves his honesty and sound-heartedness. As soon as evidence which to him is convincing is produced, he proclaims his faith.
His confession, too, is fuller than that of the other disciples. The week of painful questioning had brought clearly before his mind the whole significance of the Resurrection, so that he does not hesitate to own Jesus as his God. When a man of profound spiritual feeling and of good understanding has doubts and hesitations from the very intensity and subtlety of his scrutiny of what appears to him of transcendent importance; when he sees difficulties unseen by men who are too little interested in the matter to recognise them even though they stare them in the face,--when such a man, with the care and anxiety that befit the subject, considers for himself the claims of Christ, and as the result yields himself to the Lord, he sees more in Christ than other men do, and is likely to be steadier in his allegiance than if he had slurred over apparent obstacles instead of removing them, and stifled objections in place of answering them. It was not the mere seeing of Christ risen which prompted the full confession of Thomas. But slowly during that week of suspense he had been taking in the full significance of the Resurrection, coming at the close of such a life as he knew the Lord had lived. The very idea that such a thing was believed by the rest forced his mind back upon the exceptional character of Jesus, His wonderful works, the intimations He had given of His connection with God. The sight of Him risen came as the keystone of the arch, which being wanting all had fallen to the ground, but being inserted clenched the whole, and could now bear any weight. The truths about His person which Thomas had begun to explain away return upon his mind with resistless force, and each in clear, certain verity. He saw now that his Lord had performed all His word, had proved Himself supreme over all that affected men. He saw Him after passing through unknown conflict with principalities and powers come to resume fellowship with sinful men, standing with all things under His feet, yet giving His hand to the weak disciple to make him partake in His triumph.
This was a rare and memorable hour for Thomas, one of those moments that mark a man’s spirit permanently. He is carried entirely out of himself, and sees nothing but his Lord. The whole energy of his spirit goes out to Him undoubtingly, unhesitatingly, unrestrained. Everything is before him in the person of Christ; nothing causes the least diversion or distraction. For once his spirit has found perfect peace. There is nothing in the unseen world that can dismay him, nothing in the future on which he can spend a thought; his soul rests in the Person before him. He does not draw back, questioning whether the Lord will now receive him; he fears no rebuke; he does not scrutinise his spiritual condition, nor ask whether his faith is sufficiently spiritual. He cannot either go back upon his past conduct, or analyse his present feelings, or spend one thought of any kind upon himself. The scrupulous, sceptical man is all devoutness and worship; the thousand objections are swept from his mind; and all by the mere presence of Christ He is rapt in this one object; mind and soul are filled with the regained Lord; he forgets himself; the passion of joy with which he regains in a transfigured form his lost Leader absorbs him quite: "he had lost a possible king of the Jews; he finds his Lord and his God." There can be no question here about himself, his prospects, his interests. He can but utter his surprise, his joy, and his worship in the cry, "My Lord and my God."

and yet another source you claimed does not support you

Instead of taking advantage of the offer, Thomas responds immediately and emphatically to the invitation to “be no longer faithless but faithful.” In reply he “answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ ” (v. 28). The disciples have routinely called Jesus “Lord” (see 13:13), and Mary Magdalene has spoken of him as “my Lord” even in death (v. 13), but this is the first time anyone (aside from the Gospel writer) has called him “God,” or “my God.” Finally the introduction of Jesus to the reader as “God” (1:1), or “God the One and Only” (1:18), is confirmed from within the narrative. He has not “made himself God” (10:33), or “equal to God” (5:18), as his opponents charged, yet he is God, and now at last his disciples know it. The confession is all the more striking because the message Jesus sent to the disciples through Mary Magdalene was “I am going up to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God” (v. 17). Even Jesus recognized the Father as “my God,” and he invited his disciples to do the same. Yet Thomas does not hesitate to address Jesus himself in exactly the same way. He realizes that at the end of the day, “Believe in God, and believe in me!” (14:1) amount to the same thing. Those commands were addressed to all the disciples, not just one, and Thomas’s confession too (like Peter’s in 6:69) is best understood as representing the conviction of all the disciples gathered behind locked doors on those two successive first days of the week.

J. Ramsey Michaels, The Gospel of John (The New International Commentary on the Old and New Testament; Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, UK: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010), 1018.

That you think i should be ashamed demonstrates just how far your delusion has gone

 

[101G]

Three in One.

The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it). 2 Corinthians 13:14

the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. .... is he not?

101G.

 

[TomL]

the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. .... is he not?

101G.

No

 

[Runningman]

the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. .... is he not?

101G.

If he was the holy Spirit then he would be God. In Jesus' teachings, he taught that he cannot be blasphemed as God. Speaking against Jesus, along with almost every other sin, is completely pardonable. Therefore Jesus is not God.

Matt 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[101G]

to all who believe in the three person Godhead.

No

so the Lord Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, YOU say. scripture, 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

so holy men of God spake as they was moved by the Holy Ghost/Spirit ..... Right.... Right. Now Listen and Learn, the same apostle, 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

now, how many Spirit are there? only "ONE". and who was in the prophets of OLD? the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. the same ONE PERSON. my God this is too easy.

101G.