Jesus denied being God

[mikesw]

So, the very sad result of a heated debate between Trinitarians and Unitarians, is that we convert this in a battlefield of people defending their relationship with Jesus, versus people defending their relationship with the Father.
A battle of loyalties.
This is the WORST result ever possible!!!

Jesus said "My Father and I are one".
So, by imagining ourselves as opponents, we are placing our egos over the special bond between Jesus and His Father (whatever this bond is in theological terms) that should be the bond that we nurture among us.

I can't fathom the exact nature of the bond between Jesus and Our Father. What I know is that Jesus expects the bond bewteen all members of the Forum to be as strong as that kind of bond.

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word that they may all be one as You, Father, are in Me, and I in you- May they also be one in us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me. (John 17:20,21)

If the unitarians held to otherwise normal doctrines and they could make a convincing argument, then they could be probably be viewed as part of the same Christian family. The problem with quoting verses spoken to the apostles is that they were a narrow group in a narrow era. It does not automatically apply to those who may not be Christians at all (or are heavily deceived).
The unitarians really should cover all the verses about the deity of Christ and explain why those are not true. Okay. they should explain those verses so that others can see the arguments and decide against the Trinitarian view if convincing. All that is done typically is people share some passages about the humanity of Christ, which is not an issue in conflict. Also, the alternative views of verses listed by TomL were pretty mush incomplete and insufficient to deny Christ's deity. So the Unitarian viewpoint does not appear sustainable.
The effect has been essentially to lend greater confirmation of the Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

They post their Scripture on what they believe shows a trinity.
I post that same Scripture on what I believe shows not a trinity.

So far so good.

Both sides giving their views.

Then they attack me personally saying I went to the wrong school, or that I had the wrong teachers, or that I follow the wrong fellow Bible students. And they tell me I'm not thinking for myself, or what I'm posting came from the wrong website.

I see your point and sympathize with you.
What Trinitarians friends must understand is that the same frustration they feel towards Unitarians is the frustration we feel towards them.
It is a frustration of not seeing what the other is seeing. The frustration of valuing more certain verses over others.

My take is that, if this is not something that two intelligent and spiritually committed persons can agree on, it shouldn't be key for salvation.
Wouldn't it be weird to think that God expect us to become diligent in Classic Greek and metaphysics to understand whether He is One or Triune?

Well... the point is that there is no thread debating on whether we should repent or not from having been indifferent to the poor and sick.
A thread addressing this would be soooo booooring for many of us... !

 

[mikesw]

I see your point and sympathize with you.
What Trinitarians friends must understand is that the same frustration they feel towards Unitarians is the frustration we feel towards them.
It is a frustration of not seeing what the other is seeing. The frustration of valuing more certain verses over others.

My take is that, if this is not something that two intelligent and spiritually committed persons can agree on, it shouldn't be key for salvation.
Wouldn't it be weird to think that God expect us to become diligent in Classic Greek and metaphysics to understand whether He is One or Triune?

Well... the point is that there is no thread debating on whether we should repent or not from having been indifferent to the poor and sick.
A thread addressing this would be soooo booooring for many of us... !

I don't see why Baha'i Faith people have a stake in this argument. Just let the Unitarian prove their alternative concept of Christ.

 

[TomL]

How do you get a pre-incarnate from the following verse...

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Read the context

Philippians 2:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He was in the form of God before being made in the likeness of man

That is the pre-incarnate period

 

[TomL]

Well, if you say Amen, is because I may be representing your thinking accurately enough, and I appreciate that.

Now you need to believe it

Salvation is dependent on knowing Christ as lord

He is YHWH you must call on for salvation

 

[Peterlag]

Read the context

Philippians 2:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

He was in the form of God before being made in the likeness of man

That is the pre-incarnate period

It does not say in the form of God before. It says in the form of God,

 

[Peterlag]

I see your point and sympathize with you.
What Trinitarians friends must understand is that the same frustration they feel towards Unitarians is the frustration we feel towards them.
It is a frustration of not seeing what the other is seeing. The frustration of valuing more certain verses over others.

My take is that, if this is not something that two intelligent and spiritually committed persons can agree on, it shouldn't be key for salvation.
Wouldn't it be weird to think that God expect us to become diligent in Classic Greek and metaphysics to understand whether He is One or Triune?

Well... the point is that there is no thread debating on whether we should repent or not from having been indifferent to the poor and sick.
A thread addressing this would be soooo booooring for many of us... !

I talked on the phone yesterday with a guy I ran a Christian fellowship with years ago. He said just last night that we have always accepted the trinity folks as Christians. But they never accept us.

 

[Runningman]

So the Bible says that Jesus is an idol? I'd like to know where that verse exists.

Humans are created. Therefore worshipping Jesus fits squarely into the idolatry category.

Matthew 4
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Romans 1
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Runningman]

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Titus 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulder: And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The bible does not agree with you

Bad theology when Jesus denied being God. Those verses have all been explained to you in their proper context and your presentation of them is contradicted by a myriad of Scripture. That's the problem with your proof-texting, it doesn't jive with the Bible.

Scriptures states that Father is the only God: John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 John 5:20.

Matthew 19​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

​

Mark 10​

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

​

Luke 18​

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.​

 

[Runningman]

It totally breaks down at

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

does an impersonal thing have a mind?

does it think?

Can it act in humility?

Make itself of no reputation?

He actually denied equality with God in a number of places such as John 14:28. He said numerous times he is the only God sent, such as John 17:3, and then taught the one who is sent is not greater than the one who sent him in John 13:16.

The word order in Philippians 2:6 contradicts the claim that Jesus considered himself to be equal with God. Furthermore, Jesus isn't bowed to in heaven, earth, and under earth but rather "the name of Jesus" is bowed to and Jesus doesn't get any glory for it according to Scripture. It says only God the Father gets the glory. Philippians 2:5-11 is a good example of how Jesus is not himself God.

Philippians 2 (ESV)
5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[mikesw]

weird how these conversations progress here. This analogy should suffice. I tell someone that I love the color blue. The other person responds, "yes, the color like fresh bananas."

 

[Runningman]

weird how these conversations progress here. This analogy should suffice. I tell someone that I love the color blue. The other person responds, "yes, the color like fresh bananas."

Sounds like when we keep telling you guys "the Father is the only true God" and show all of the Scripture to back it up, you all say something unrelated.

 

[mikesw]

Sounds like when we keep telling you guys "the Father is the only true God" and show all of the Scripture to back it up, you all say something unrelated.

See it this time? You miss the nuance especially when you refer to John 17:3 and pretend v5 does not nullify your position. Jesus can easily be speaking from the perspective his humanity to those around him. He can also speak of the example I gave before that you may greet Mr. Johnson and his son Stuart at the door by saying Hi Mr. Johnson and Stuart. But if Stuart comes along on his own you say Hi Mr. Johnson. Then the other option is the true Mr. Johnson is here as well as his son. The son can say "I'm not the true Mr. Johnson because my dad was unable to make it."
Really, it could be this or other options. Jesus had glory with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5). Consequently, this pre-existence has to be addressed. If nothing else quite makes sense here, the best you can say is this is not a solid set of verses for you to make an argument.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I talked on the phone yesterday with a guy I ran a Christian fellowship with years ago. He said just last night that we have always accepted the trinity folks as Christians. But they never accept us.

I knew little about Unitarian Christians until a couple of years ago. I share your impressions in general. However, you have also shown intolerance here, my brother.
Nobody escapes this, and I include myself.

 

[Peterlag]

I knew little about Unitarian Christians until a couple of years ago. I share your impressions in general. However, you have also shown intolerance here, my brother.
Nobody escapes this, and I include myself.

I have started to ask if there are trinity folks that are even born again. I ask. They do not ask. I question why they cannot see simple truth. And they do the same.

 

[synergy]

I knew little about Unitarian Christians until a couple of years ago. I share your impressions in general. However, you have also shown intolerance here, my brother.
Nobody escapes this, and I include myself.

To: @Peterlag

You can't tolerate the Bible when it proves you wrong.

 

[TomL]

He actually denied equality with God in a number of places such as John 14:28. He said numerous times he is the only God sent, such as John 17:3, and then taught the one who is sent is not greater than the one who sent him in John 13:16.

The word order in Philippians 2:6 contradicts the claim that Jesus considered himself to be equal with God. Furthermore, Jesus isn't bowed to in heaven, earth, and under earth but rather "the name of Jesus" is bowed to and Jesus doesn't get any glory for it according to Scripture. It says only God the Father gets the glory. Philippians 2:5-11 is a good example of how Jesus is not himself God.

Philippians 2 (ESV)
5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Can you deal with the point raised?

This deals with the pre-incarnate Christ and shows he is a personal being

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

does an impersonal thing have a mind?

does it think?

Can it act in humility?

Make itself of no reputation?

Other than that, he had already existed in the form or nature of God

Philippians 2:5–8 (NIV) — 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

 

[TomL]

Bad theology when Jesus denied being God. Those verses have all been explained to you in their proper context and your presentation of them is contradicted by a myriad of Scripture. That's the problem with your proof-texting, it doesn't jive with the Bible.

Scriptures states that Father is the only God: John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 John 5:20.

Matthew 19​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

​

Mark 10​

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.​

​

Luke 18​

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.​

He did not deny being God. That is your interpretive spin on the verse

which denies the fact the bible calls him God

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Titus 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2 Peter 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulder: And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The bible does not agree with you

BTW it is true the father is the one God

but the bible does not say the father alone is the one God

for Jesus is the only God as is the Holy Spirit as well

It's bad theology when you ignore the fact he is called God and is shown to do the very things of Jehovah and in his pre-incarnate state he is called Jehovah and God - the God of the fathers and the God of Abraham, Jacob and Joseph

 

[TomL]

It does not say in the form of God before. It says in the form of God,

Is that supposed to make sense

He existed in the form of God and then was made flesh

 

[mikesw]

Is that supposed to make sense

He existed in the form of God and then was made flesh

I wonder what got these guys into this unitarian concept. Did they have a troubled or strict church experience and they identified the problem as trinitarianism? Maybe they got attracted to some passages that speak of Jesus' humanity so then they just interpreted the divinity passages to other meanings? Perhaps they start with some hyper-spiritual concept of religion and fit everything into doctrines that make them "spiritual" like Jesus.