Jesus denied being God

[MTMattie]

The image of God is spirit and it was spirit that He put in Adam and Eve when He created them.

Adam and Eve, both had a spirit, and a soul and lived in a body.

1 Thes 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The human spirit is the deepest part of a person. By means of our spirit, we can contact God in the spiritual realm. This is how God can be realized by us. God didn’t create any other creature with a spirit; this makes human beings unique from every other living thing.

(see John 4:24; Rom. 1:9)

And with that I have to leave....

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@

My beliefs are based on all the scriptures below that tech in heaven believers and angels are prostrate before God ie worship.

Since we don't have Jesus physically or visually among us, how do you prostrate before Jesus? I mean, do you do it as part of your usual prayers?

 

[Runningman]

That Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate.

He isn't. That isn't a lie. The Bible doesn't even describe this.

Do you even think before you respond. You embrace him and reject me. Physician, heal thyself.

You are rejecting the words of Christ that I am simplying repeating.

Ah.... getting angry and claiming judgement on your enemies (even when they're you're brother) is nothing new. Just a matter of time when you can't defend your position. Do you think God likes it when you do this? You're not like @Pancho Frijoles in this.

I am not getting angry. You should be informed about your status. It would be worse if I said nothing.

Ah... it just keeps getting worse with you. You're actually claiming they didn't see the Father in Christ from the beginning. The Son expressed the Father from the beginning. What "son" came straight up out of the baptismal waters into the sky being confirmed by the very voice of the Father?

They didn't know the Father at the beginning.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

God isn't in the bodily form of a bird.

Exodus 20
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Glad you admit that you have no worship with the Father apart from the Son.

You don't seem like a Christian at all to me since you lied about something I never admitted. No spirit here. Just a bunch of pride, ego, and hot air.

 

[Runningman]

Selective reading..... That is what cults do. They selectively quote what Jesus said.

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Add John 14 to your reading comprehension.

So quoting the teachings of Jesus is cultic... you ignore them all... turn and quote two verses as if somehow or another that totally overrides everything else the Bible teaches on? Pot, meet kettle.

 

[civic]

So your idea of worship is just fall down and that's it? Jesus taught us it's spirit and truth to the Father only.

John 4
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You don’t worship Jesus in spirit , truth or in action by prostrating before Him.

You will when you stand before Him in judgment as per Phil 2- every knee will bow and tongue confess He is Lord ( YHWH )

 

[Peterlag]

Adam and Eve, both had a spirit, and a soul and lived in a body.

1 Thes 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The human spirit is the deepest part of a person. By means of our spirit, we can contact God in the spiritual realm. This is how God can be realized by us. God didn’t create any other creature with a spirit; this makes human beings unique from every other living thing.

(see John 4:24; Rom. 1:9)

And with that I have to leave....

Now on the above we agree 100 percent.

 

[Peterlag]

You really haven't given this much thought at all.

First you should notice the "US" in that Scripture. Us is plural. Not singular. Can you at least acknowledge this fact?

What we see in the flesh now is not what Adam was entirely. You do realize that Adam lived over 900 years right? Adam lived to see and fellowship with Enoch.

Maybe you don't know this. In fact, I bet you don't. Mankind has devolved since Adam. So don't judge Adam but what you see now.

Adam was innocent. However, Adam wasn't complete. The proof is in the fact Adam sinned.

If Adam was made in the exact image of God, then how is it possible that Adam sinned?

Concerning the "us" God could have been talking to any number of His spirit beings. Angels or angel like creatures and even Cherubims. Why is it that you only think God was talking to another god? And concerning Adam... does it say "exact image" or are you adding to the Bible?

 

[praise_yeshua]

He isn't. That isn't a lie. The Bible doesn't even describe this.

Sure it does. Want to create a dedicated debate on this one aspect of the conversation. I'll be glad to correct you.

You are rejecting the words of Christ that I am simplying repeating.

I treat Christ and the Father as equals. As such, when 'm dealing with One, I'm dealing with all of them. There is no division in the Trinity. None.

I am not getting angry. You should be informed about your status. It would be worse if I said nothing..

You don't know my intent or purpose. Do you remember those arguments you've made? All I go by is what you say. Intent means nothing to me. If you intend something, learn how to express it accurate in your communications.

They didn't know the Father at the beginning.

Jesus came unto His what? How can you possible say they didn't know the Father? Did John the Baptist or Elizabeth know the Father?

God isn't in the bodily form of a bird.

Never said He was. Never said He isn't. Pay attention.

Exodus 20
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

You don't seem like a Christian at all to me since you lied about something I never admitted. No spirit here. Just a bunch of pride, ego, and hot air.

You're inconsistent. You applaud those who applaud you. Nothing more. That is who your "brother" is to you.

Sad. Problematic. I'm the same whether someone agrees with me or not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So quoting the teachings of Jesus is cultic... you ignore them all... turn and quote two verses as if somehow or another that totally overrides everything else the Bible teaches on? Pot, meet kettle.

These two verses must be included in your teaching. You're not doing that at all. Not my problem. The problem is with you.

 

[civic]

@

Since we don't have Jesus physically or visually among us, how do you prostrate before Jesus? I mean, do you do it as part of your usual prayers?

The same way I do with the Father bowing , on my knees or laying down

 

[praise_yeshua]

Concerning the "us" God could have been talking to any number of His spirit beings. Angels or angel like creatures and even Cherubims. Why is it that you only think God was talking to another god? And concerning Adam... does it say "exact image" or are you adding to the Bible?

The "US" is tied to the image.

So you believe man was made like the angels?

Stop. Think. Don't just repeat what you've heard from others.

 

[civic]

The "US" is tied to the image.

So you believe man was made like the angels?

Stop. Think. Don't just repeat what you've heard from others.

Ditto

 

[Peterlag]

That isn't an answer. Fellowship doesn't require prayer. It may include it but it does not require it. In fact, there are times when we have to find peace in fellowship when Christ does not answer us.

If you've fellowshipped with Christ, you should know that HE is often more than enough to satisfy us regardless if we get what we want or not.

That is real fellowship.

I am concerned with fellowshipping with God as I love and worship Him with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength. But it's the Christ that I am fellowshipping with to the end that I am moving back and forth with him and thereby able to have a relationship with him. This is new to me because the concept is to not ask God for much. Also, and this is huge: I no longer try to get God or Jesus Christ to work with me or to get close to me. I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face.The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

The "US" is tied to the image.

So you believe man was made like the angels?

Stop. Think. Don't just repeat what you've heard from others.

There is no trinity. The verse in Genesis is not referring to a trinity. There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. If the Jews had no trinity, and the Christians had no trinity until it was officially declared by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Then don’t you have to wonder where it came from? If it was formulated by the same Church that brought you Mary Mother of God, immortality of the soul, purgatory and hellfire... then don't you wonder just a little bit?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am concerned with fellowshipping with God as I love and worship Him with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength.

No you do not. No one does. It is an impossible task that you should recognize as such. I tell you does. Jesus Christ.

When you think of pleasing God, you actually think/believe you can meet God's standards. You can't. Not even John the Baptist meet them. Somewhere you will fail. Over and over again. Don't lie to yourself.

But it's the Christ that I am fellowshipping with to the end that I am moving back and forth with him and thereby able to have a relationship with him. This is new to me because the concept is to not ask God for much. Also, and this is huge: I no longer try to get God or Jesus Christ to work with me or to get close to me. I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face.The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

[/COLOR]

I got past that nonsense decades ago. Overcoming Catholics isn't worth bragging about. You'll change the rest of your life or you're not drawing close to God. It is endless task with no celebrating till Christ gathers all to Himself.[/quote]

 

[praise_yeshua]

There is no trinity. The verse in Genesis is not referring to a trinity. There is not one verse that says Jesus is God the Son. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible.

Wrong.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it.

Apparently all you know is Catholicism. Wow. You sure have put some time in to inform yourself. I'm not impressed. Most people are too lazy to do much anything relative to knowing God. That is why they let others define their theology for them.

You know nothing about Judiasm. Read a little Alfred Edersheim. Good read. Not the Scriptures but you certain don't know Judaism.

The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. One should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. And it is not. If the Jews had no trinity, and the Christians had no trinity until it was officially declared by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. Then don’t you have to wonder where it came from? If it was formulated by the same Church that brought you Mary Mother of God, immortality of the soul, purgatory and hellfire... then don't you wonder just a little bit?

[/COLOR]
Catholics didn't invent anything. Just like yourself, they were late to the conversation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@

Since we don't have Jesus physically or visually among us, how do you prostrate before Jesus? I mean, do you do it as part of your usual prayers?

I can "bow the knee" in my heart and reference Jesus Christ without a single outer confirmation of such.

Jesus told his disciples to pray in their closet. Have you forgotten this?

BTW. At least acknowledge that your partners here are claiming revelation as proof of their beliefs that contrary to any thoughts of Scriptures.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're free to believe that. You will be humbled soon. All those who reject the Father as the only true God will be humbled by God at their judgement.

Hi @Runningman and @praise_yeshua
Hi everyone

In these debates, two things tend to happen

• Unitarians suppose that Trinitarians are rejecting God or teaching idolatry, so they often get outraged
• Trinitarians suppose that Unitarians are rejecting or degrading Jesus, so they often get outraged

Both suppositions, if true, would mean hell. Not just hell, but a hell "well deserved". This means that the parties in question would not consider unfair that God punishes the other party with fire. They would consider it unquestioned divine justice.

So, we should better be extremely prudent in making these judgements.
If we are making the worst possible judgement on our fellow (what can be worse than damnation!) we are going to be judged by the same measurement.

Trinitarians could not possible reject the Father, since the Father is pleased to see that a Trinitarian loves his Son and follows his teachings.
As I am trying to prove, a statement "I worship Jesus" has no other meaning, in practice (not in theory) that following Jesus as Lord over any other competing Lord.

In this Forum, however, we all are fond of theory. We are passionate about doctrines.

I'm gonna use a strong metaphor here. My apologies in advance:
To get aroused by the sight of a beautiful woman is something healthy for a man, a reaction that is a gift of God.
To get addicted to pornography perverts that gift and lead us astray from the things that really matter.

Well, theology is a wonderful gift to the mind, but addiction to theology can be like addition to pornography. It may lead us to despise the grace of God and make of our interpretation of the Scriptures a golden calf around which we dance.

 

[Peterlag]

Wrong.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Apparently all you know is Catholicism. Wow. You sure have put some time in to inform yourself. I'm not impressed. Most people are too lazy to do much anything relative to knowing God. That is why they let others define their theology for them.

You know nothing about Judiasm. Read a little Alfred Edersheim. Good read. Not the Scriptures but you certain don't know Judaism.

[/COLOR]

Catholics didn't invent anything. Just like yourself, they were late to the conversation.

John 1:1 is not a teaching. A teaching is a whole couple of paragraphs or a chapter. Not half verses or a word here and another word someplace else. Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Peterlag]

No you do not. No one does. It is an impossible task that you should recognize as such. I tell you does. Jesus Christ.

When you think of pleasing God, you actually think/believe you can meet God's standards. You can't. Not even John the Baptist meet them. Somewhere you will fail. Over and over again. Don't lie to yourself.


[/COLOR]

I got past that nonsense decades ago. Overcoming Catholics isn't worth bragging about. You'll change the rest of your life or you're not drawing close to God. It is endless task with no celebrating till Christ gathers all to Himself.

You walk in your flesh and I in the spirit. So you cannot understand what I write. I am not a sinner as you suggest. I am made in the righteousness of God in him. In him is in the spirit.

2 Corinthians 5: 17, 21
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.