Do you mean someone who recognized the Triune God or do you mean the later way of preventing heretics from misconstruing the Triune God?
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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Runningman
Active Member
You seem to think that arguing against something means you were successful to either challenge it, refute it, or make it go away. Unfortuantely, you are learning at this age that that isn't the case. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6 all explicitly state/define the Father as the one and only true God. That isn't an interpretation or a rewording, that is explicitly what the verses say and yet you refuse to understand the Bible around these explicit statements regarding God being Unitarian. Why is that?
So Jesus, as speaking to unrepentant Jews, are the light of the world on par with Jesus?
I think another feature of unitarians is their inability to recognize their own absurdities.
Runningman
Active Member
This version contains a contradiction because it isn't correct. Jesus is never called the "only God" or the "only begotten God" in similar verses like John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9. The contradicition is that if you cannot see God, how could you see “the unique God?” It would mean no one ever saw Jesus or had any idea what he was talking about, contrary to Scripture.
This is the correct version:
John 1 (NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes. Jesus was teaching them that they are the light of the world in the Sermon on the Mount because Jesus is also the light of the world. Jesus was teaching them they can be what he is. Why do you always seem so skeptical of what the Bible says? I am noticing that with you. Jesus did the very exact thing you are questioning and then you criticize those who believe him. You have a spiritual problem.
John 17:3 does not explain away v5. So you are dishonest in your assertions here.
Jesus can speak on a human level when pointing to the Father. So you remain misguided.
You keep repeating failed arguments. We keep revealing your failures.
1 Cor 8:6 does not exclude Jesus from his divinity -- He is God but not a separate god. Jesus is also equated with God by all Paul's introductions to the letters. You just cannot follow passages like John 1:18
Eph 4:6 does not challenge the Trinity doctrine as if someone thought that three gods existed. Your ignorance continues. In Eph 4:4-6 there are lots of ones mentioned and they are all related to each other. That passage includes the Spirit. Your hyper-literalist readings avoid the difficult passages and miss the difficulties of the passages.
because you misinterpret the verses you use and pretend the rest of the Bible does not exist.That isn't an interpretation or a rewording, that is explicitly what the verses say and yet you refuse to understand the Bible around these explicit statements regarding God being Unitarian. Why is that?
How convenient to take the least likely Greek text as your argument! That however is one of your tactics.
The text is
John 1:18 (ESV)
18No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
This is the explanation of the most likely original Greek:
The nest of textual variants is rather complicated, but probably the right reading is monogenēs theos, ‘the unique and beloved one, [himself] God’—taking ‘God’ appositionally. No other passage puts these words together like this, which probably accounts for the change made by many copyists to monogenēs huios, ‘the unique and beloved Son’ (or, in more traditional language, ‘the only begotten Son’).
D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John, Eerdmans, 1991, 139.
This is pointing to the nature of the Greek original and not suggestive of a biased interpretation to force an idea.
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synergy
Active Member
Ok. We are receptive to Bible verses but you are not as witnessed by your multiple Gaffes. Anyways, you continue to deny the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14).
Also, you ran away from my explanation of the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) and how it aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis. There's no surprise there because you continue to despise Greek and to deny Biblical verses.
The phrase “The Light was coming (ἐρχόμενον)” highlights an active, ongoing descent of God into human history. That matches the kenotic idea: Christ who was continually pouring Himself out in the Incarnation and ministry. Christ never ceased to be eternal Light, but in His kenosis He veils His glory, such that men must be illumined to recognize Him (John 1:10–11). This has the potential of becoming your Gaffe #17 depending on your willingness to acknowledge Biblical truths
He was talking to them as Jews. There were some details applicable to those who would come to Christ. You could say they were the dim bulbs at that time since God was not know through other ways yet.
I just do not accept people's teachings who fail to understand scripture.
Wow. you again denigrate Jesus by removing his divinity. Of course, I'm used to your denial of God.
Runningman
Active Member
You have no prophecies in the Bible about God incarnating or becoming flesh and no one ever said that happened in all of the New Testament as well.
Going to be pretty tough for you to argue God incarnated at all, but I can prove Jesus is a man, I can prove men were created, and I can prove that "became" is used with creation rather an an incarnation anywhere in the Bible. I have already won this debate.
Runningman
Active Member
John 17:3 isn't meant to explain away John 17:5. It isn't meant to explain away anything. You are trying to explain away John 17:3 using John 17:5, I have seen you pull that stunt many times. You don't believe the Father is the only true God so you search everywhere for reasons to attempt to justify that belief. Why do you not believe the Father is the only true God and also believe John 17:5 in a way consistent with that?
Your version of John 1:18 says "No one has ever seen God" then after that it says of Jesus "the only God" and later everyone saw Jesus. Yes, it's a contradiction. No one has seen the Father, but Jesus is a human whom everyone has seen. Jesus isn't the invisible God that no one can see.
Look, Jesus isn't the invisible God again:
Colossians 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians 4:6 debunkes the trinity. It says the one God is the Father and that He is over all. That tears to shreds the idea of a coequal trinity if there is only one God, the Father, who is over them.
Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God because Jesus is God incarnate. But as having become incarnate, Jesus is the firstborn of every creature. Jesus's divinity is why he is the life to those who come to him. You cannot get life from a mere human.
Again with Eph 4, you deny the context and you fail to use the obvious identification of Jesus as God in John 1:18. When no one has seen God, it means God in all his glory. You fail to recognize that God was seen in obscured glory in the cloud by day and fire by night. so you fail to keep the breadth of scripture in mind so you can deny who God is.
You keep wanting to find verses that debunk who God is. Just declare yourself an atheist.
synergy
Active Member
Since you offered no rebuttal as to how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis, it is now officially your Gaffe #17.
As for "incarnation", we already talked about that and you chose to live in blissful ignorance of the Greek word "ἐσκήνωσεν". That's why I've been carrying your Gaffe #2 in the List below for a while now.
Until you stop ignoring and start addressing your List of Gaffes properly, your Gaffes will continue to convict you ad infinitum:
List of RM's Gaffes:
- You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
- Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
- You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
- Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
- Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
- Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
- You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
- At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
- The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
- Your ignorance of the Word of God in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3).
- You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
- Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
- You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
- You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
- Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
- Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
- Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
Runningman
Active Member
God is invisible, Jesus is not invisible. Your John 1:18 translation is bunk and contradicts Scripture. Means Jesus is not God because the ONLY GOD is invisible.
Colossians 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
This is the correct version because the only God is invisible, but many saw Jesus, contrary to your version saying that Jesus is God. John 1 is a travesty for trintiarianism.
John 1 (NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
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Runningman
Active Member
The Word not being the God is still there in John 1:1 and the Word not being the Creator or true Light is still there too. I do take pleasure in how you keep posting this though. It confirms you ran out of gas to continue this debate several comments ago.
synergy
Active Member
This is repeat of your Gaffe #1.
This is a repeat of your Gaffe #3.
This is a repeat of your Gaffes #14 and #16.
Excellent! I'll keep doing it.
You're projecting your failures to me that are in vivid color for all to see here:
List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:
- You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
- Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
- You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
- Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
- Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
- Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
- You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
- At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
- The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
- Your ignorance of the Word of God in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3).
- You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
- Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
- You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
- You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
- Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
- Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
- Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
Runningman
Active Member
Post it again. Obey me, trin. Too easy.
Ah. The unitarian heresy builds on saying scripture contradicts scripture. Mr. Runningman, if you do not accept the actual Greek text, you are just contorting scripture to fit your view. Would you translate theos as something other than God in John 1:18?
Maybe it is Jesus' body that makes him visible despite ultimately having been invisible--such an amazing concept no doubt. Then you do the strawman argument as if Christians recognize Jesus as another god instead of being the same God. I only say this is a strawman argument because of your highlighting this in the context of talking about the divinity of Christ.
John 1 only is a travesty about God when viewed from a unitarian heretical reading. I'm not sure how John 1:18 should be rejected for identifying Jesus as God. You will only accept verses that do not reveal the divinity of Christ. That is not just bad but is evil coverup.
I think you missed details from people who know scripture but was shared earlier and now again:
Jesus is described here as ‘God the One and Only (monogenēs)’. This description is striking. It differs from other statements that use monogenēs in relation to Jesus to describe the uniqueness of his status as the one who came from the Father (14) or as the Son of God (3:16, 18). This verse speaks of Jesus as ‘God the One and Only’ and echoes the opening paragraph (a) of the Prologue, which says ‘the Word was God’.
Colin G. Kruse, John: An Introduction and Commentary, InterVarsity Press, 2003, 75.
You can play pretend with scripture if you like, but it will not be to your benefit. If you have found something somewhat valid, maybe you can show how the verses about the divinity of Christ are addressed -- but do so with a logical argument, especially like John 1:18.
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synergy
Active Member
They are your Gaffes #'s 1, 3, 14, and 16 below. The only thing "too easy" is how easy it is for us to pinpoint your Gaffes as evidenced below:
List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:
- You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
- Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
- You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
- Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
- Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
- Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
- You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
- At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
- The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
- Your ignorance of the Word of God in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3).
- You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
- Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
- You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
- You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
- Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
- Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
- Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
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