Runningman
Well-known member
No I'll continue following Jesus and I hope you'll begin yourself.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
I think you just are going beyond any logical comprehension and it confuses your posts. You have said Christ is not Christ. The basis for King Jesus coming was due to King Jesus ascending to the throne as the one promised to David.
You still sound confused. I'm not ready to clear up for you how Jesus as the Son of God in his divinity is also known as Son of Man in fulfillment of his humanity.
THen your skipping over of the Spirit of God is nonsensical. Not sure what else to say. You only are confusing scripture without giving a bridge to get to your doctrines -- to convince people of your denial of Christ. There just is no overlap or shared ideas here.
What does it even mean when you say you follow Jesus when you only deny every detail of who he is? Maybe you will share what you actually believe, not just what you deny.
Runningman
Well-known member
That's what you're doing.
No I never said that.
Yes Jesus is the king of the Jews and there will be many ruling with him as the Bible says.
Nope.
I already debunked the deity of Jesus. Where we are now doing is troubleshooting your misunderstandings.
No idea what you're talking about. You're just assigning a bunch of things to me I never said.
Nope I thoroughly understand this topic. Be direct about what your point is.
Runningman
Well-known member
This is a dishonest debate on your part. You are only trying to confuse it at this point. Lucky for you, it's just a forum debate tucked away on some corner of the Internet. You would have already been dragged out kicking and screaming for pulling this stunt in a formal debate. Stay on topic, stick to the Scripture, stop talking about me, and you'll be fine.
Jesus is King. That is what Messiah means. That is basic. You are admitting it but denying it at the same time. You cannot have it both ways
Is your memory that short? You said the verse was speaking God with identifying that the verse is speaking of the Spirit of God. Do you realize you missed that detail?
I mean there are no shared ideas between what you say and what Christians say. You deny everything about Christ but say you follow whatever you follow.
Runningman
Well-known member
Messiah does not mean king. It means the anointed. Do your homework.
Wrong. I said that speaking against the son of man is forgivable but speaking against God is not.
I'm a Christian.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Where's the teaching on casting out demons? Where's the teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit? Where's the teaching on how to preach the gospel to our coworkers? Where's the teaching on wedding covenants?
so you somehow think Messiah means anointing that somehow is differentiated from him born as King? You deny who Christ is.
You again fail to indicate the Spirit in this. If you distort scripture, you can make it say whatever you want. If they realized Jesus as the Son of God, it probably would be unforgivable. But he was not explicit about that in public, so it was not the issue before those Pharisees.
Hopefully you are one despite your denials of who Christ is. If you popped into a Christian meeting around me and spouted this stuff, I would not start to guess which religious group you were part of.
We still have yet to hear that part of your doctrine about who Christ is after all his attributes have been rejected. Maybe you can explain something about the reason for the virgin birth?
Peterlag
Well-known member
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity,
Peterlag
Well-known member
Baptism just means to immerse. Matthew 28:19 sticks out like a sore thumb not fitting with a gazillion other verses. And a similar verse in 1 John was added to the Bible in the 15th century. There's no reason to have God come to the earth as a man. And if there was a reason then why come as a baby? God coming to the earth serves no purpose. It accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).
Peterlag
Well-known member
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Thomas is not referring to Jesus as God. He's calling out the Lord in front of him and the God who worked the miracle.
you sound amazingly like Pancho Frijoles. I do not know of any doctrine that a Christian has to know to be justified. I just know that wrong doctrines can indicate a hazardous environment. A church full of bad doctrine is not good and can deny the effectual work of Christ that got us justified with God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Everything I can find on John 8:58...
“I am the one.” Many Trinitarians argue that this verse states that when Jesus said “I am,” he was claiming to be God, (i.e., Yahweh, the God who revealed Himself to Moses in the Old Testament). But saying “I am” does not mean a person is claiming to be God. The Greek that is translated as “I am” is egō eime (ἐγὼ εἰμί), and it was a common Greek way for a person to identify themself. For example, only ten verses after Jesus said, egō eime (“I am”) in John 8:58, the man who had been born blind identified himself by saying exactly what Jesus said; egō eime (“I am;” John 9:9). Thus, Jesus and the man born blind both identified themselves by saying egō eime (“I am”), only ten verses apart.
Sadly, unless a person looks at the Greek text, he will never see that “I am” was a common Greek way for a man or woman to identify themselves. In what seems to be a clear case of Trinitarian bias in translating the Greek text, when Jesus says, egō eime (“I am”) in John 8:58, the English Bibles read, “I am.” But when Jesus says egō eime in other places in the New Testament, or other people say egō eime (“I am”), the Greek phrase gets translated differently. So, for example, some English translations of what the man born blind said are: “I am the one” (CJB, HCSB, NASB, NET); “I am he” (BBE, ERV, KJV, YLT); “It is I” (DBY); and, “I am the man” (ESV, NIV). The only commonly used English Bible that has “I am” in John 9:9 is the New American Bible.
There are many other examples of the phrase egō eime not being translated as “I am,” but being translated as “I am he” or some other similar phrase. For example, Jesus taught that people would come in his name, saying egō eime (“I am he”) and will deceive many (Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8 (HCSB, ESV, NAB, NET, NIV).
Jesus said egō eime (“I am”), in a large number of places, but it is usually translated “I am he,” “It is I,” or “I am the one,” which are good translations because, as was stated above, egō eime was commonly used by people to identify themselves. Examples of Jesus using egō eime include: John 13:19; 18:5, 6, and 18:8; Jesus identifying himself to the apostles on the boat: Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; and John 6:20; and Jesus identifying himself to the Jews, saying egō eime, translated “I am the one I claim to be” (John 8:24 and 8:28 NIV84). All these places where Jesus says egō eime but it is not translated “I am” shows that the translators understand that just saying egō eime does not mean the person is claiming to be God.
At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny Christ. They used egō eime as the standard Greek identifier. Jesus had said one of them would betray him, and one after another they said to him, mētiegō eime, Kurie (literally, “not I am, Lord;” Matt. 26:22 and 26:25.) The apostles were not trying to deny that they were God by saying, “Not I am.” They were simply using as the common personal identifier egō eime and saying, “Surely not I, Lord.”
In Acts 26:29, when Paul was defending himself in court, he said, “I pray to God that…all who hear me this day would become the same as I am [egō eime].” Obviously, Paul was not claiming to be God. There are more uses of the phrase “I am,” and especially so if we realize that what has been covered above is only the nominative singular pronoun and the first-person singular verb that we have just covered. The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. C. K. Barrett writes:
A major problem that occurs when we misunderstand a verse is that the correct meaning goes unnoticed, and that certainly is the case with John 8:58. If the phrase egō eime in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the other places where Jesus says it, instead of coming to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus is God, we would more easily see that Jesus was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God who was foretold throughout the Old Testament.
Trinitarians assert that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. But Jesus did not literally exist before his conception in Mary, but he “existed” in the plan of God, and was foretold in prophecy. Prophecies of the coming redeemer start as early as Genesis 3:15, which was before Abraham. Jesus was “the one,” the Savior, long before Abraham. The Church did not have to literally exist as people for God to choose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), we existed in the mind of God. Similarly, Jesus did not exist as an actual physical person during the time of Abraham, but he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.
It is also important to notice that many people misread John 8:58 and think it says Jesus saw Abraham. We must read the Bible carefully because it says no such thing. It does not say Jesus saw Abraham, it says Abraham saw the Day of Christ. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. John 8:56 says, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the day of Christ (the day of Christ is usually considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom—and it is still future). That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “for he was looking forward to the city that has the lasting foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11:10). The Bible says Abraham “saw” a city that is still future. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham (cp. Gen. 3:15). Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.
Jesus did not claim to be God in John 8:58. In very strong terms, however, he claimed to be the Messiah, the one whose day Abraham saw by faith. Jesus said that before Abraham was, “I am the one,” meaning, even before Abraham existed, Jesus was foretold to be the promised Messiah. Jesus gave the Jews many opportunities to see and believe that he was in fact the Messiah of God, but they were blind to that fact, and crucified him.
We see a good example of “I am” being used as a way to identify oneself but without any claim of being God when we compare Mark 13:6 with Matthew 24:5. In these parallel records, Jesus is in the last week of his life, and he is on the Mount of Olives teaching disciples. According to Mark, Jesus said, “Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am,’ and will lead many astray.” However, Matthew records the same incident as Jesus saying, “many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will mislead many.” In the context of the End Times, false Messiahs could identify themselves simply as “I am,” but the meaning is clarified in Matthew, “I am the Messiah.” In this case, we can see that “I am” means “I am the Messiah.”
“I am the one.” Many Trinitarians argue that this verse states that when Jesus said “I am,” he was claiming to be God, (i.e., Yahweh, the God who revealed Himself to Moses in the Old Testament). But saying “I am” does not mean a person is claiming to be God. The Greek that is translated as “I am” is egō eime (ἐγὼ εἰμί), and it was a common Greek way for a person to identify themself. For example, only ten verses after Jesus said, egō eime (“I am”) in John 8:58, the man who had been born blind identified himself by saying exactly what Jesus said; egō eime (“I am;” John 9:9). Thus, Jesus and the man born blind both identified themselves by saying egō eime (“I am”), only ten verses apart.
Sadly, unless a person looks at the Greek text, he will never see that “I am” was a common Greek way for a man or woman to identify themselves. In what seems to be a clear case of Trinitarian bias in translating the Greek text, when Jesus says, egō eime (“I am”) in John 8:58, the English Bibles read, “I am.” But when Jesus says egō eime in other places in the New Testament, or other people say egō eime (“I am”), the Greek phrase gets translated differently. So, for example, some English translations of what the man born blind said are: “I am the one” (CJB, HCSB, NASB, NET); “I am he” (BBE, ERV, KJV, YLT); “It is I” (DBY); and, “I am the man” (ESV, NIV). The only commonly used English Bible that has “I am” in John 9:9 is the New American Bible.
There are many other examples of the phrase egō eime not being translated as “I am,” but being translated as “I am he” or some other similar phrase. For example, Jesus taught that people would come in his name, saying egō eime (“I am he”) and will deceive many (Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8 (HCSB, ESV, NAB, NET, NIV).
Jesus said egō eime (“I am”), in a large number of places, but it is usually translated “I am he,” “It is I,” or “I am the one,” which are good translations because, as was stated above, egō eime was commonly used by people to identify themselves. Examples of Jesus using egō eime include: John 13:19; 18:5, 6, and 18:8; Jesus identifying himself to the apostles on the boat: Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; and John 6:20; and Jesus identifying himself to the Jews, saying egō eime, translated “I am the one I claim to be” (John 8:24 and 8:28 NIV84). All these places where Jesus says egō eime but it is not translated “I am” shows that the translators understand that just saying egō eime does not mean the person is claiming to be God.
At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny Christ. They used egō eime as the standard Greek identifier. Jesus had said one of them would betray him, and one after another they said to him, mētiegō eime, Kurie (literally, “not I am, Lord;” Matt. 26:22 and 26:25.) The apostles were not trying to deny that they were God by saying, “Not I am.” They were simply using as the common personal identifier egō eime and saying, “Surely not I, Lord.”
In Acts 26:29, when Paul was defending himself in court, he said, “I pray to God that…all who hear me this day would become the same as I am [egō eime].” Obviously, Paul was not claiming to be God. There are more uses of the phrase “I am,” and especially so if we realize that what has been covered above is only the nominative singular pronoun and the first-person singular verb that we have just covered. The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. C. K. Barrett writes:
A major problem that occurs when we misunderstand a verse is that the correct meaning goes unnoticed, and that certainly is the case with John 8:58. If the phrase egō eime in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the other places where Jesus says it, instead of coming to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus is God, we would more easily see that Jesus was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God who was foretold throughout the Old Testament.
Trinitarians assert that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. But Jesus did not literally exist before his conception in Mary, but he “existed” in the plan of God, and was foretold in prophecy. Prophecies of the coming redeemer start as early as Genesis 3:15, which was before Abraham. Jesus was “the one,” the Savior, long before Abraham. The Church did not have to literally exist as people for God to choose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), we existed in the mind of God. Similarly, Jesus did not exist as an actual physical person during the time of Abraham, but he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.
It is also important to notice that many people misread John 8:58 and think it says Jesus saw Abraham. We must read the Bible carefully because it says no such thing. It does not say Jesus saw Abraham, it says Abraham saw the Day of Christ. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. John 8:56 says, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the day of Christ (the day of Christ is usually considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom—and it is still future). That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “for he was looking forward to the city that has the lasting foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11:10). The Bible says Abraham “saw” a city that is still future. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham (cp. Gen. 3:15). Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.
Jesus did not claim to be God in John 8:58. In very strong terms, however, he claimed to be the Messiah, the one whose day Abraham saw by faith. Jesus said that before Abraham was, “I am the one,” meaning, even before Abraham existed, Jesus was foretold to be the promised Messiah. Jesus gave the Jews many opportunities to see and believe that he was in fact the Messiah of God, but they were blind to that fact, and crucified him.
We see a good example of “I am” being used as a way to identify oneself but without any claim of being God when we compare Mark 13:6 with Matthew 24:5. In these parallel records, Jesus is in the last week of his life, and he is on the Mount of Olives teaching disciples. According to Mark, Jesus said, “Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am,’ and will lead many astray.” However, Matthew records the same incident as Jesus saying, “many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will mislead many.” In the context of the End Times, false Messiahs could identify themselves simply as “I am,” but the meaning is clarified in Matthew, “I am the Messiah.” In this case, we can see that “I am” means “I am the Messiah.”
The same Greek word for 'sins' is used in 1 Corinthians 8:12. By sinning against a brother, one is sinning against Christ.
Thanks again for proving my point.
Post 2321
Complete
Well-known member
'But if I tarry long that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself
in the house of God
which is the church of the living God
the pillar and ground of the truth
and without controversy great
is the mystery of godliness
.. God was manifest in the flesh
.... justified in the Spirit
...... seen of angels
........ preached unto the Gentiles
.......... believed on in the world
............ received up into glory.'
(1Ti 3:15-16)
Praise God!
Complete
Well-known member
'And that He died for all,
that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God,
Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.'
(2Co 5:15-21)
Praise God!
that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God,
Who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
For He hath made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.'
(2Co 5:15-21)
Praise God!
