Jesus and the Father are the same Person

[Mod2]

Private Debate for @101G And @Fred Let's get the ball rolling. Each one will respond to the others post and directly address their post and ask a follow up question. Fred can start things out with his opening post then 101 can respond to his OP.

 

[Fred]

1A. Plural pronouns are used by God in the Old Testament in reference to Himself. This demonstrates that the 1 and only true God is more than one Person. Thus, Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

1B. Plural pronouns are also used in the New Testament in reference to both the Father and the Lord Jesus. This demonstrates that Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Revelation 6:16-17
(16) and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
(17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?


2. The Messenger of YHWH is YHWH (the pre-incarnate Jesus) in that He is the proper recipient of worship.
a. Jacob credited the Messenger for redeeming him from all evil.
b. Jacob asked the Messenger to bless Joseph's children.
c. Jacob asked the Messenger to cause his descendants to grow into a multitude.
Genesis 48:15-16
(15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
(16) The Messenger which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

The same Greek word in the Septuagint for "redeemed" (ryomai) in v. 16 is used by Paul in a doxology in reference to the Lord Jesus. Notice that this is also in relation to deliverance from evil.
2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil deed all evil, and preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Paul also linked being rescued from evil in reference to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians. The same Greek word for "rescued" (ryomai) is found in 2 Thessalonians 3:2.
2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
(2) And that we may be rescued from perverse and evil men: for all men have not faith.
(3) But the Lord is faithful, who shall strengthen and protect you from evil.

The thing is the Messenger of YHWH (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was spoken to by way of command to cease destroying the people. Thus, Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
2 Samuel 24:16
And when the Messenger stretched out His hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented Him of the evil, and said to the Messenger that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now Thine hand. And the Messenger of the Lord was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.


3. Associate
Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,
Declares the LORD of hosts.
Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand against the little ones.

This passage teaches that Jesus is both man and God. He is referred to as a "man" and He is the Father's "Associate".
Being an "Associate" refers to His equality with the Father and it demonstrates that Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.

The Greek word found in the Septuagint for "Associate" (politēs) is used in regards to more than one person - not the same person in the New Testament.
Hebrews 8:11 (politēs)
and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying 'Know the Lord,' for all will know Me, from the least to the greatest of them.

Notice also that when this Hebrew word for "Associate" (`amiyth) is found elsewhere in the Old Testament it is always used in reference to equal relations among many people. As we see in Leviticus it is always in reference to how the Israelites are to be towards other Israelites - equals.
Leviticus 6:2
When a person sins and acts unfaithfully against the Lord, and deceives his companion in regard to a deposit or a security entrusted to him, or through robbery, or if he has extorted from his companion.
Leviticus 18:20
You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor's wife, to be defiled with her.
Leviticus 19:11
You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
Leviticus 19:15
You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.
Leviticus 19:17
You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.
Leviticus 24:19
If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him:
Leviticus 25:14
If you make a sale, moreover, to your friend or buy from your friend's hand, you shall not wrong one another.
Leviticus 25:15
Corresponding to the number of years after the jubilee, you shall buy from your friend; he is to sell to you according to the number of years of crops.
Leviticus 25:17
So you shall not wrong one another, but you shall fear your God; for I am the Lord your God.


4. They saw the God of Israel, but it wasn't the Father.
Exodus 24:10
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, as clear as the sky itself.
John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He who is from God, He hath seen the Father.

Question
Since people "saw the God of Israel" but it wasn't the Father, then who did they see?

 

[101G]

1A. Plural pronouns are used by God in the Old Testament in reference to Himself. This demonstrates that the 1 and only true God is more than one Person. Thus, Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.

GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for the Post.
I need only one scripture to rebuke that pronoun theory that God is more than one person.
A. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." here God is a "ME" one person, and beside "ME", (ONE) person there is no God. so that eliminates any three person Godhead, or trinity. as well as the following

B. scripture. Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." here again "ME" a single Person designation is GOD, and God himself states he, (the ONE person), knows not any other persons, or Gods.

C. Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." the LORD, all cap, is Saviour, and JESUS is the only Saviour, and the LORD is the Father, here we see clearly that JESUS and the Father/LORD is the same one person.

D. Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."

so clearly from the OT JESUS is the Father, who is Saviour.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

again, 101G needs only ONE scripture to reprove rebuke the notion that there are two, or three persons at Genesis 1:26. the witness I call to the stand is God himself, the Lord Jesus, who cannot LIE. while talking to the Pharisees concerning divorcement they tempted the Lord. let here our answer concerning Genesis 1:26. Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"
notice, the Lord Jesus said, "he" which is a single person designation is God who made man male and female from the beginning. now the "he" here is God, how do we know this? because our brother Mark records the same conversation. listen, Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." so the "he" in Matthews 19:4 is GOD.
notice "he" a single person designation, meaning God is a HE, and not a they.

but also, the Lord Jesus said, " Have ye not read?" well where is this at in scriptures. verse 27 right after verse 26 in Genesis 1 as Fread quoted. LISTEN, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." this is where the Lord Jesus said, "Have ye not read?". here in Genesis 1:27, God is a HE, and a HIS, both single person designations. confirming what the Lord Jesus said in Matthews 19:4. now do anyone say the Lord Jesus LIES? of course not, so God according to the Lord Jesus in flesh... himself says God is a HE, that alone should put an end to any trinity.

now the next question comes, "How is the same ONE PERSON GOD in Genesis 1:26 that is a Plurality of US and OUR, but in the very next verse God is a singularity of HIS, and HE, a single person designation. now if the Lord Jesus say God is a single person, why is verse 26 plural? 101G will provide the biblical ANSWER. for he, GOD, is a H 259 ECHAD of his own self to come in Flesh, better known as the "LAST" Adam. and this ECHAD of God consist of FIRST and LAST, (and this is not a plurality). this FIRST and LAST clearly shows the LORD as "FIRST", (Isaiah 41:4) and the Lord, Son, who is the Last, (per 1 Corinthians 15:45. both are JESUS as the First and Last, per Rev. 1:17. for he was "WITH" God in the beginning, per John 1:1 which will be a question of mine latter.

so that should take care of the US and the OUR at Genesis 1:26.

1B. Plural pronouns are also used in the New Testament in reference to both the Father and the Lord Jesus. This demonstrates that Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Revelation 6:16-17
(16) and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
(17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

John 14:23, we is the ECHAD of God in SHARED NATURE, of the same ONE PERSON. supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
the first part, "Who, being in the form of God". being here is present tense. so in same time as he was in Flesh in likeness of a Man his Nature is the same as God who is Spirit, per John 4:24a. for the term "Form" means NATURE". so the question come, "What kind of Nature?" answer... as the scripture's states, "be equal with God:" be what! ..... is there anyone equal .... "WITH"... not equal "TO" God but equal "with" God. note the difference equal "TO", and EQUAL "WITH". if someone was equal "TO" God then one would have two or more person who exist alongside the "ME" as we have been saying. now 101G will demonstrate that the EQUAL "WITH" indicate the same one Person.

101G call God by his prophet Isaiah to the witness stand.

A. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." clearly the Lord the First is "WITH" the Last. is this two separate persons? the First and the Last? let God speak. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO. the term "ALSO" indicates the "SAME ONE PERSON", for the Term "ALSO" means, in addition: too. so God as the EQUAL ECHAD SHARE of himself in flesh to come, (per Philippians 2:6) is the First/Father, and the Last/Son, the same one Person. and it also prove out John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." yes, with and was God. which again clearly answer the Genesis 1:26 question which 101G said was to come in Flesh. and here in John that was to come was the same one person in the beginning, now in flesh and blood here at John 1:1 which is the "ARM" of God in Flesh, per Isaiah 63:5, and clearly seen in Isaiah 53, which show that plurality spoken of in Genesis 1:26, as 101G said, was to Come. for Isaiah 53 use the plurality of He and his, in contrast of each other which is the same one person, for it is GOD's ... "OWN", "OWN", ARM, again Isaiah 63:5.

so the plural pronouns of the NT as well as the OT speak of the same one person in the ECHAD.

2. The Messenger of YHWH is YHWH (the pre-incarnate Jesus) in that He is the proper recipient of worship.
a. Jacob credited the Messenger for redeeming him from all evil.
b. Jacob asked the Messenger to bless Joseph's children.
c. Jacob asked the Messenger to cause his descendants to grow into a multitude.
Genesis 48:15-16
(15) And he blessed Joseph, and said, The God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
(16) The Messenger which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

The same Greek word in the Septuagint for "redeemed" (ryomai) in v. 16 is used by Paul in a doxology in reference to the Lord Jesus. Notice that this is also in relation to deliverance from evil.
2 Timothy 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil deed all evil, and preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Paul also linked being rescued from evil in reference to the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians. The same Greek word for "rescued" (ryomai) is found in 2 Thessalonians 3:2.
2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
(2) And that we may be rescued from perverse and evil men: for all men have not faith.
(3) But the Lord is faithful, who shall strengthen and protect you from evil.

The thing is the Messenger of YHWH (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was spoken to by way of command to cease destroying the people. Thus, Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
2 Samuel 24:16
And when the Messenger stretched out His hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented Him of the evil, and said to the Messenger that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now Thine hand. And the Messenger of the Lord was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.


3. Associate
Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,
Declares the LORD of hosts.
Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand against the little ones.

This passage teaches that Jesus is both man and God. He is referred to as a "man" and He is the Father's "Associate".
Being an "Associate" refers to His equality with the Father and it demonstrates that Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.

well let's reprove this error. in Zechariah 13:7. 101G is using the KJV, Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."
we all know that this is speaking of the Lord Jesus the Son correct.

see that term "FELLOW" it is the Hebrew term,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

notice definition #2. ... especially concretely. ...... a concretely kindred man. remember God is abstract. scripture, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

the root is before Davis source.... "Spirit". as with all men. and Offspring, after David. now let's LOK at the term "Offspring,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

KIN? yes as in KINSman REDEEMER. and concrete, meaning in flesh bone and blood. so this KINSman is a REDEEMER. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Uh Oh, there it is the REDEEMER is also the "LORD", who came in Flesh. checkmate. the REDEEMER, or as the bible in the OT say, the KINSMAN REDEEMER. and here we have it clearly in Zechariah 13:7 for this man, (the Son), is God's FELLOW. remember the definition of "FELLOW".
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.the Scriptures are clear, the LORD/Father is the REDEEMER, and in flesh as God's ..... "Fellow", if that REDEEMER in flesh concrete the Son is the SAME one Person diversified, or EQUALLY SHARED in NATURE just as Philippians 2:6 states, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" .

101G will finish in part II for limited space.

 

[101G]

Question
Since people "saw the God of Israel" but it wasn't the Father, then who did they see?

ANSWER to your Question. they saw JESUS in similitudes, and this was only in spirit. supportive scripture, Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

now as for seeing God...... in spirit, John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." that's the KEY, "save he which is of God" of God is in the Spirit. i.e. John on Patmos. when he was taken up to heave, what condition was he in? listen to the answer, Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," there it is, ..... "IN the Spirit".

now who did they see? JESUS, without flesh, without bone, and without blood, the ORDINAL FIRST. this is the HE the Lord Jesus said who made man in the beginning male and female. supportive scripture. Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple." Isaiah 6:2 "Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly." Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Isaiah 6:4 "And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke." Isaiah 6:5 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." Isaiah 6:6 "Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:"


what did verse 5 say? " for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts"
Who is this KING, this LORD of Hosts. Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war." Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself." Revelation 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (HELLO the Word of God?). Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Revelation 19:16 "And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

this is the Lord Jesus in Amalgamation of the Spirit/Father/First and the Flesh/Son/Last, the same one Person.

101G

 

[Fred]

The singular pronouns used of God do not contradict the plural pronouns. They complement one another. God refers to Himself using both plural and singular pronouns because the 1 true God of the Bible is more than one Person.
--> Notice how 101G piled up passages that refer to God using singular pronouns, but this will not ever nullify the use of plural pronouns used in reference to Him. It's like saying Jesus is referred to as 'the Son of Man' many more times than He is referred to as 'the Son of David.' This would not mean Jesus is not the Son of David! The entire approach to this by 101G is therefore in total error.

101G insists the use of "we" in John 14:23 refers to nature, not Persons. I don't know what confused dictionary he is basing his information on, but he certainly didn't cite any at all. The reason is, because no one agrees with his outlandish position.


Concerning his terrible and confusing take on Zechariah 13:7 he affirms "God is abstract." I have news for you 101G. God is not "abstract." He is real. Your disastrous abuse of word definitions can be also used against you:

thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

This messy method of 101G is simply a ruse to distract from the total deficiency of his position. Indeed, notice that he totally ignored every other use of the Hebrew word in question as found in Zechariah 13:7. It is simple and straightforward. Compare the truth and simplicity of that with trying to even come close to figuring out 101G's sloppy attack on it.



Finally, the reader should be aware that 101G totally dodged what I affirmed concerning "the Messenger of YHWH" in Genesis 48:16. If he wants to pretend it's not there because it decimates his false position, then that is his choice. If he claims he didn't see it or that he forgot, then this is another indication of his sloppy approach to understanding the Bible. One needs only to read just a few sentences from his ransom note style responses to know what I mean.

 

[101G]

The singular pronouns used of God do not contradict the plural pronouns. They complement one another. God refers to Himself using both plural and singular pronouns because the 1 true God of the Bible is more than one Person.
--> Notice how 101G piled up passages that refer to God using singular pronouns, but this will not ever nullify the use of plural pronouns used in reference to Him. It's like saying Jesus is referred to as 'the Son of Man' many more times than He is referred to as 'the Son of David.' This would not mean Jesus is not the Son of David! The entire approach to this by 101G is therefore in total error.

101G insists the use of "we" in John 14:23 refers to nature, not Persons. I don't know what confused dictionary he is basing his information on, but he certainly didn't cite any at all. The reason is, because no one agrees with his outlandish position.

GINOLJC, to Fred, and all.
Fred said, "101G insists the use of "we" in John 14:23 refers to nature, not Persons. I don't know what confused dictionary he is basing his information on," well here is the dictionary that 101G is basing his INFORMATION on. 101G is using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. and here is the Information produce and it can easily be reproduced.
the "WE" can be explained clearly from the OT point of view as ONE PERSON in the term H259 ECHAD, as well as from NT terminology in the term "ANOTHER". as 101G previous stated, God is the ECHAD of himself using OT terminology, but in the NT the same Idea is transferred in the term, "ANOTHER", which is G243 Allos. let's see the "WE" in scripture to clearly UNDERSTAND. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

notice the term "ANOTHER" in John 14:16.... "Another Comforter". the Lord Jesus was speaking. what do the term "ANOTHER" means. a separate person? or the same one person? 101G will present to you that here in John 14:16 it is speaking of the ONE person, the Lord Jesus himself in Diversity, or in the ECHAD of EQUAL SHARE. first let's understand the term "another. using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words the term "Another" in the Greek it has two definitions, and 101G will highlight to show the differences. and they are, [ 1,,G243 G2087 ,allos heteros ] have a difference in meaning, which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort."
now, let's understand the "WE" in John 14. G243 Allos "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". the "NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE" is 1, 2, or 3, .... but it also can be "First, and Last", or "Beginning and End", or "Alpha and Omega". but what is the determining Factor? the word "sort". while online anyone can go to dictionary dot com and see what "SORT" means. I have provided the Link to the word. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sort
as a noun, (since we are speaking of the ANOTHER COMFORTER in John 14). here what the term means
#1. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature:
#2. character, quality, or nature:
notice how 101G large "Nature", which is the point of contention. the character, 101G will get to later. but remember Fred said, "101G insists the use of "we" in John 14:23 refers to nature, not Persons" and here's why. scripture again, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" here "FORM" is the Greek word,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

Form here is clearly "NATURE", and the scripture states the Lord Jesus has the EQUAL NATURE... "WITH", not "TO" God, but "WITH" God. for if the term "TO" was used then it would INDICATE a separate and distinct PERSON "FROM" God who would be a separate second, or third person, distinct from the first-person mention. and the trinitarians would be correct in more than one person. but the scripture is clear, "WITH" God, which indicate the same ONE PERSON, "WITH" the same ONE NATURE. so how do 101G explain this ONE NATURE OF ONE PERSON AS A "WE" OF PLURALITY. remember G243 allos states, a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort" well the answer is in the ROOT of the word G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') which is G3313. now what do this ROOT TERM MEAN? 101G will give the whole definition and apply the correct definition statement. 101G is using again, the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).
2. a part.
3. (as an adverb) partly, in part.
4. (as a participle) participating (i.e. the act of taking part in).
5. a piece (i.e. a limited portion).
6. (of location) a district.
7. (of livelihood) an occupation (i.e. as ones' portion in life).
8. a portion in Jesus (see John 13:8).
{literally or figuratively, in a wide application}
[from an obsolete but more primary form of μείρομαι mȇírȏmai “to get as a section or allotment”]
KJV: behalf, course, coast, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort(-what)

Notice definition #1. #5 and #8, and also notice how the KJV can translate the word as "PORTION" as in definition #1. here, we have our answer as to the EQUAL NATURE, not PERSON, but the EQUAL"NATURE" of the Lord Jesus as stated in Philippians 2:6. which in turn explain "we" in John 14, according to the numerical difference of G243 allos the another. Listen to the answer.
Portion: what is another word or the synonyms word of "portion?" answer, "share". there is the link to this understanding. https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/portion.html so the Lord Jesus NATURE is the EQUAL "SHARE" of God in Flesh.... notice not a piece/part as G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) can be defined as. but NO, here as the EQUAL SHARE in NATURE, not two NATURES, no, but the SAME NATURE SHARED, because it is the SAME ONE PERSON. can 101G demonstrate this ONE PERSON, ONE "SHARED" NATURE by scripture? yes, he can.

Scripture, Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."
notice the word, "consolation", it is the Greek word.... and 101G is using the same dictionary. it is the Greek word,
G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n.
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty
Root(s): G3870

so, this Consolation of Israel is a. a help. b. a comfort, and c. a counsel. now, let's look at these words with our eyes fixed on John chapter 14, and 101G will fill in the scriptures as needed.

a. a help. if someone is a help, they are called a "HELPER". scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" this word Comforter is also called the HELPER.

G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter

and this "consolation" beside being a HELPER.... (the Holy Spirit), he, this "consolation" is also the "advocate" who is also the Lord Jesus. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" the Lord Jesus is this advocate this consolation of Israel. but notice the verse states, "WITH" the Father. as previous, 101G demonstrated that the term "WITH" when used in describing God as one person has been establish in Isaiah 41:4, and 48:12 as well as in John 1:1. just see my previous posts.
but this help/"consolation"/Helper is also a .... as definition #2. states, intercessor, and we all know who that is, again the Holy Spirit, per Romans 8:26. remember now John 14:16 states ...... "ANOTHER", and here in Luke in FLESH the Lord Jesus is the First comforter, and when he comes on Pentecost, yes, he's that "ANOTHER", but now in POWER of and in Spirit.

but also this "consolation"/helper/comforter is, counsel. definition #2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
and someone who give counsel is a Counsellor, in this case a ...... "MEDIATOR". Uh Oh!. but first lets see this Counsellor from the OT scripture first. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
there he is, The Prince of Peace/JESUS, The everlasting Father/JESUS, yes, the Father. And, The mighty God/JESUS, and what we said, counsel/Counsellor/JESUS. understand NOW? let's go back to John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

the term "ANOTHER" as said is G243 Allos. and what did allos states? a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort" ............ and a numerical difference as in ordinal First, and ordinal Last, or Beginning and end, or as alpha and omega, or as Father and Son.... Oh my, this is the numerical difference but G243 allos also states of the same "SORT", and sort means,
#1. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature:
#2. character, quality, or nature:
so who else is in these categories. .... that's right... no one else.
in the ECHAD of EQUAL SHARE in NATURE, the Lord Jesus is .... "WITH" the Father in the same kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature Bingo, there is the ECHAD, in the EQUAL SHARE of the SAME ONE NATURE of the SAME ONE PERSON. that why in Isaiah 53, it states, Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

this "he" (the Son) that grow up before "him" (the Father)... on the surface, it seems like two separate and distinct persons..... do it not? no, it's the same "ONE PERSON" in the ECHAD, OT, or in the state Diversity or the another, NT, of the same one person in flesh to die for our sins. (scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." at the same time the Lord JESUS was talking to Nicodemus on EARTH, he JESUS as the First/Father was in Heaven, oh the beauty of Diversity. and yes, Diversity is expressed in the bible. let's see it. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
OFFSPRING: G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

BINGO, see how the KJV can translate "offspring" ......... diversity..... yes, the same KINSman in Zechariah 13:7, "God's FELLOW, who is the G243 Allos/Another of God in Flesh to Come.... again, the Last Adam to come, did not make man male and female in the Beginning, but JESUS the First/the Father did. oh is too easy not to understand. this is why 101G is a "Diversified Oneness". this is what the Lord Jesus taught, (per Matthews 19:4). and this is the gospel he gave 101G..... in a NEW TONGUE. and not an unknown tongue, or another tongue, but a NEW TONGUE which many has not heard unto now. my supportive scripture. Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" a NEW TONGUE is not different. ........ a NEW TONGUE is just one has not been heard in this way. same Gospel, but with new revelation on the OLD that has already been since the foundation of the world.

so, this should completely reprove my opponent claim of "what confused dictionary he is basing his information on". 101G has given the names of the dictionaries he uses as well as the LINK to supportive documentation.

that should satisfy the rebuke of "WE" in John 14.

101G

 

[101G]

Finally, the reader should be aware that 101G totally dodged what I affirmed concerning "the Messenger of YHWH" in Genesis 48:16.

Why address this? any redemption is of God, and not a creation of God, (an angel). the topic is the Lord Jesus and the Father, not an angel, be it figuratively spoke of or NOT. that's off topic. for redemption as said is of God.

101G.

 

[Fred]

101G asserted in post 6:
"101G is using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. and here is the Information produce and it can easily be reproduced."

His theological position is as terrible as his grammar (cf. his second sentence). I don't mind a mistake or several mistakes here and there. However, when this is coupled with boldface writing throughout and in different colors then it becomes onerous to read and comprehend.

It's a mess.



On the theological side of things, 101G makes reference to a source, but then fails to put what was asserted in quotations. Furthermore, there wasn't a page number given to back up his claim. If a page number isn't available, then he could have at least cited a link or some other way a person can verify what was written.


John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Concerning the word "abode" as used in John 14:23, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament reads as follows:
"of God and Christ by their power and spirit exerting a most blessed influence on the souls of believers, John 14:23" (monē, page 417, the boldface and underlined are mine)

Do you see the above, 101G? I supplied the name of the Greek lexicon, the word used and the page number where it can be found. Notice also that this lexicon uses the plural pronoun - which once again totally refutes 101G's position.
If 101G would like to supply a quote from this Greek-lexicon in which the word "their" is used in relation to John 14:23 that agrees with his position, then he is welcome to do so.



Zechariah 13:7
101G has failed to supply any example from the Bible in which `amiyth ('Associate') agrees with his position.
I supplied 9 other examples from the Bible, while 101G is at 0 (zero).
This means 100% as opposed to his 0%.



Genesis 48:16
The Hebrew word (mal'āk) means "messenger."

This same Hebrew word refers to:
a. Created supernal beings
Psalm 148:2
Praise Him, all His angels;
Praise Him, all His hosts!

b. Created people
Joshua 6:17
The city shall be under the ban, it and all that is in it belongs to the LORD; only Rahab the harlot and all who are with her in the house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent.

c. Based on the fact that this 'Messenger' is prayed to in order to perform what was asked of Him, it is used in reference to another Person of God. This being the Lord Jesus (see 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Thessalonians 3:2-3 in my first post).
Genesis 48:16
The Messenger which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Jacob asked the Messenger for His blessing.
Remember, a blessing is a prayer.
Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: the OT does not portray a blessing as magical, but as a prayer offered to a sovereign God. (Bless, page 67)

2 Chronicles 30:27
Then the Levitical priests arose and blessed the people; and their voice was heard and their prayer came to His holy dwelling place, to heaven.

By blessing the people, the priests were praying to God.
By blessing the lads, Jacob was praying to the Messenger (the pre-incarnate Jesus).


Question: Since you believe this messenger in Genesis 48:16 is a created angel then why did Jacob pray to Him?

 

[101G]

. Based on the fact that this 'Messenger' is prayed to in order to perform what was asked of Him, it is used in reference to another Person of God. This being the Lord Jesus (see 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Thessalonians 3:2-3 in my first post).
Genesis 48:16
The Messenger which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.


Question: Since you believe this messenger in Genesis 48:16 is a created angel then why did Jacob pray to Him?

(smile), you really didn’t read what 101G actually said, did you? thank you Lord Jesus for the bait, This makes my POINT. That JESUS is the Father. Now note what you said, “the Messenger of YHWH" in Genesis 48:16 as if it was two person, (your pre-incarnate Jesus, (the Son), and God the Father). the term “of” God, is God HIMSELF. let’s see it, Exodus 14:19 "And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:"

The angel of God is the LORD himself, all capitalization, your YHWH is God/JESUS. Let’s see it plainly. Exodus 13:21 "And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:" so it was the LORD, all cap the Father, himself that went before them.

Now remember what you said,
2. The Messenger of YHWH is YHWH (the pre-incarnate Jesus) in that He is the proper recipient of worship.

the Messenger of YHWH is JESUS/God himself. Who is the “LORD”, one Person. Checkmate. For you said, is the pre-incarnate Jesus, Which is the LORD all caps. You made my Point for me.

101G responded so fast? Because 101G already have his response typed out for this answer, (to reprove your answer)……. what did 101G say? “any redemption is of God”. so the term here is not of a second person the pre-incarnate Jesus/son. . no, but of God himself, the LORD. so your ANGEL of God proves 101G's point that it is JESUS who is LORD, the Father.


Which now 101G will ask, “is the Person in John 1:3, your pre-incarnate Jesus/son, the same one person in Isaiah 44:24 the “LORD”. yes or NO.


101G.

 

[Fred]

101G responded so fast? Because 101G already have his response typed out for this answer, (to reprove your answer)……. what did 101G say? “any redemption is of God”.

You responded so fast and it is still a disaster.

so the term here is not of a second person the pre-incarnate Jesus/son. . no, but of God himself,

Yet in post 7 you affirmed I was "off topic" because it refers to an angel.
Now you are debating yourself as to whom the Messenger in Genesis 48:16 refers to.

Thanks for proving my point, because as I pointed out in my first post:
the Messenger of YHWH (the pre-incarnate Jesus) was spoken to by way of command to cease destroying the people. Thus, Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.
2 Samuel 24:16
And when the Messenger stretched out His hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented Him of the evil, and said to the Messenger that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now Thine hand. And the Messenger of the Lord was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.


One Person is speaking by way of command to another Person.
And this Person obeys the command.
That's two People, not your false 1 person God.

Which now 101G will ask, “is the Person in John 1:3, your pre-incarnate Jesus/son, the same one person in Isaiah 44:24 the “LORD”. yes or NO.

Your question assumes Isaiah 44:24 is referring to "the same one Person."
One God, yes.
One Person, no.



101G dodged Zechariah 13:7 and John 14:23.
This is becoming a pattern.

 

[101G]

You responded so fast and it is still a disaster.

but that disaster proved that Jesus is the Father..... the "LORD".... (smile).

And when the Messenger stretched out His hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented Him of the evil, and said to the Messenger that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now Thine hand. And the Messenger of the Lord was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

(smile), 1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." 1 Chronicles 21:2 "And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it." 1 Chronicles 21:3 "And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?" 1 Chronicles 21:4 "Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem." 1 Chronicles 21:5 "And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword." 1 Chronicles 21:6 "But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab." 1 Chronicles 21:7 "And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel." and God is the LORD, who is JESUS............. simple.

Your question assumes Isaiah 44:24 is referring to "the same one Person."
One God, yes.
One Person, no.

ok, let's see, if it's ONE PERSON, or Not.
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

"I am the LORD". I is a single person designation. and the term "ALONE", means, "having no one else present". if no one else is present then it's ONLY one Person..... meaning the Person here in Isaiah 44:24 is the same "PERSON" in John 1:3, else one has two CREATORS..... your choice... checkmate.
and if you say, he the LORD went through the Son Jesus. well that want work, because as already proven, JESUS is the LORD. and also by being "ALONE" there is no one to go through. and do you understand the complication of being "ALONE?"
there is on other who is Omni-present. well that right there killed any possibility of a trinity. we suggest you re-read Isaiah 44:24. and on top of that I like the way your, NASB 1995, the bible that you said you will be using.... put it. "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone"...... "all alone?" yes, exclusive, all alone, meaning, excluding or not admitting other things. checkmate.

now to make it as plain as possible, Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD (the same one who is the angel of God), hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." how clear can one get? The “LORD, all capitalization, Made all Things for HIMSELF. he, God, JESUS, the Spirit in the beginning, without flesh bone and blood, (the Ordinal FIRST), or the First/Father, who created us, (human creatures), and all things for himself. let's see it again in scriptures, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." can one get any plainer that that? and note. here in the resurrection, "Lord" is used as to ... "WHO" .... MADE ALL THING. this is too easy not to understand. he made all things for himself, and no one else..... BINGO.

so the scriptures again rebuke your answer.
now one more question. scripture, Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" clearly the "Lord", laid the foundation of the EARTH.... correct. is this then the same one person as in Isaiah 44:24, but read these scriptures first, before you give your answer. Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." and this one, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." Isaiah 48:13 "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."

and "MY" as in hand here that laid the foundation of the earth is a single person designation. so your answer...'is the Lord the same one person who is the "LORD", who is the Angel of God.... smile.

101G.

 

[Fred]

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

"I am the LORD". I is a single person designation.

That is your assumption that you have not proved, especially since God refers to Himself using plural pronouns elsewhere.

Question: Have you figure out to whom the Messenger is in Genesis 48:16?

I ask because in post 7 you affirmed that I was "off topic" because it refers to a created angel. However, in post 9 you then affirmed it was in reference to God Himself. Perhaps a debate can be set up where you can debate yourself for all of us to see as to whom you really believe the Messenger in Genesis 48:16 refers to.

 

[101G]

That is your assumption that you have not proved, especially since God refers to Himself using plural pronouns elsewhere.

no assumption, scripture. just read..... ok, this simple passage, Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." is the "Lord" and the "LORD" here in this ONE Scripture the same one Person? yes or no.

101G.

 

[Fred]

no assumption, scripture. just read..... ok, this simple passage, Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." is the "Lord" and the "LORD" here in this ONE Scripture the same one Person? yes or no.

101G.

You need to answer my question from post 12 before I answer your question from post 13.

 

[101G]

Question: Have you figure out to whom the Messenger is in Genesis 48:16? I ask because in post 7 you affirmed that I was "off topic" because it refers to a created angel. However, in post 9 you then affirmed it was in reference to God Himself. Perhaps a debate can be set up where you can debate yourself for all of us to see as to whom the Messenger in Genesis 48:16 refers to.

already answered that, see post #9. now, is the LORD and the Lord in Psalms 110:1 the SAME "ONE" Person? yes or No

101G.

 

[Fred]

already answered that, see post #9.

I see that your post 9 is more authoritative for you than your post 7.

now, is the LORD and the Lord in Psalms 110:1 the SAME "ONE" Person? yes or No

No.

 

[101G]

now, is the LORD and the Lord in Psalms 110:1 the SAME "ONE" Person? yes or No

you said, No. ... ok, lets see. in the same chapter, now verse 5. Listen to the bible. Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."
the same "Lord" ... who is at the "LORD" right is the Hebrew term,
Lord: H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113

Note definition #2. The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel". Why and how? because it is the emphatic form of H113. and emphatic means, showing or giving emphasis; expressing something forcibly and clearly" checkmate again. it's the same one person, but "Lord" in the diversified form of EQUALLY SHARED ECHAD in Flesh bone and blood. this is why David said... "my", "my", "my" Lord. for my is also personal. and is not the Lord, ...... Jesus God in flesh? let's see. John 13:13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."
is not the "Lord" in Psalms 110:1 is master? let's see.
Lord: H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') n-m.
אָדֹן 'adon (aw-done') [shortened]
1. sovereign (i.e. controller, human or divine).
2. lord.
{also used as a prefix for names}
[from an unused root (meaning to rule)]
KJV: lord, master, owner.

so we see clearly that the Lord and the LORD is the same one person. must we continue this debate?

101G.

 

[101G]

@Fred,
the emphatic form of H113 is the "Lord" in verse 1.
H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') n-m.
אָדֹן 'adon (aw-done') [shortened]
1. sovereign (i.e. controller, human or divine).
2. lord.
{also used as a prefix for names}
[from an unused root (meaning to rule)]
KJV: lord, master, owner.

it's the same one person.

 

[Fred]

you said, No. ... ok, lets see.

You need to see The Book of Acts chapter 2, because Psalm 110:1 is quoted in Acts 2:34-35.

Acts 2:32-35
(32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(33) Therefore having been exalted by right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He hath poured forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on My right hand,
(35) Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

"This Jesus...received from the Father"

This Jesus (Person 1) receives from the Father (Person 2).


If God is only 1 Person then Person 1 receives from Himself which is nonsense.

Thus, Jesus and the Father are not the same Person.

 

[Fred]

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself.

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

YHWH "alone" is the Creator of all things (Isaiah 44:24), and YHWH refers to more than 1 Person (Genesis 1:26).


You asked in post 17, "must we continue this debate"?

I am done.

Page 1 of this thread is finished.

1 post from the Moderator
9 posts from me.
10 posts from you. -->[Edit] 11 posts (counting post 22) which is fine.

Thank you 101G for having this debate with me. I appreciate it. Thanks also to the Moderator, Civic and anyone else involved.

May all of us grow closer and closer to the true God of the Bible for His glory. Amen.